The Lazy Mans Hydraulic Ride Improvement

[Armidillo]

Friction modifiers are NOT friction increasers! That would result in the box lunching itself.

I'm decrying the diesel treatment, most Xantiæ I know of that had this done, suffered a number of failed hoses afterwards. Including mine!

I thought the issue was that if the ATF was too slippery the wet clutch(s) would slip (OK motor bikes have multiplate wet clutches bathed in straight engine oil, but they aren't as heavy).


Re. the leaks - can't say I'm surprised - diesel is a pretty good solvent!

What I am looking for is the cheapest fluid that I can use to temporarily fill up an old Xantia (which has leaks I can't be bothered fixing - which is why the stuff needs to be cheap!) so I can move it. Rabbits are living under it, and with the car down to it's bump stops the dogs can't follow them under it !!

It would be preferable if the stuff does no harm as it's a VSX and packed full of useful stuff. OK - LHM's the best, but ATF is half the price and available in 4 litre containers anywhere! Diesel would be even cheaper, but the leaks are bad enough thanks! If Dex II is OK I'll use that - don't like the idea of having anything else around that might accidentally find it's way into a 605 auto trans!

Cheers

Alec

 

[addo]

Dex 2 is fine but why not put UHMW rods in the suspension cylinders?

 

[Armidillo]

You think I've got plastic rods just lying around? No idea where you find that sort of thing in Armidale...

Just filling it up and getting the hydraulics to do the work should be far easier - will give the engine a run as well (keeping in mind Jo Proffi's advice about thoroughly heating up a car so as to drive out all moisture from mufflers etc...

 

[JBN]

I would go DEX II. I drove a CX from Brisbane to Sydney with that in it. Both DEX II and LHM are 10 grade oils. Probably a bit more detergent in DEX II as automatic gearboxes need spotless conditions and operate at higher temperature.

Slippery isn't an issue with a Citroen suspension. Also, the VSX is not different to any other LHM suspended car as far as fluid goes. All LHM cars have spheres (which consist of metal and rubber). The only difference with a VSX/XM setup fluid wise is the solenoids, and all they consist of are pistons that are pulled out of the way upon starting the car. They may close off the centre sphere if the computer dictates that the suspension should go to hard mode, and will close off the centre sphere when the engine is switched off.

John

 

[Armidillo]

Thanks John - useful info about the viscosity too!

Alec

 

[JohnW]

I would go DEX II. I drove a CX from Brisbane to Sydney with that in it. Both DEX II and LHM are 10 grade oils. Probably a bit more detergent in DEX II as automatic gearboxes need spotless conditions and operate at higher temperature.

Slippery isn't an issue with a Citroen suspension. Also, the VSX is not different to any other LHM suspended car as far as fluid goes. All LHM cars have spheres (which consist of metal and rubber). The only difference with a VSX/XM setup fluid wise is the solenoids, and all they consist of are pistons that are pulled out of the way upon starting the car. They may close off the centre sphere if the computer dictates that the suspension should go to hard mode, and will close off the centre sphere when the engine is switched off.

John

Our CX was on DexII when we bought it. It was just fine. Some 8 years after we reverted to LHM, all the leaks had been fixed too. I'm by no means sure the DexII was really the problem. I wouldn't hesitate to use it temporarily to get a car shifted.

 

[daffyduck]

I know of DS and ID that have been on dexron for more than forty years. I have a letter from the factory stating it is okay to use dexron in lhm cars. Some of these cars stay up for days. It is s readily available substitute and works just fine. Just don't the the purists and the "armchair experts" find out or you might get caught in a fluid skirmish.

 

[XM Mechanic]

John,

When you drained your fluid mix from the car was it dirty? Did it look like it had done any cleaning?

 

[JohnW]

I know of DS and ID that have been on dexron for more than forty years. I have a letter from the factory stating it is okay to use dexron in lhm cars. Some of these cars stay up for days. It is s readily available substitute and works just fine. Just don't the the purists and the "armchair experts" find out or you might get caught in a fluid skirmish.

So right. I wasn't wanting to go there either.....

 

[JBN]

John,

When you drained your fluid mix from the car was it dirty? Did it look like it had done any cleaning?

It was a little dirty, but so is LHM after I have drained it. Naturally it was a reddish colour form the ATF.

John

 

[andrewj]

If I was really worried, I could knock up a nice official looking sign stating "This car is under police surveillance and has purposely been left unlocked" with a scanned NSW police emblem to give it a legitimate look.

John

We don't lock the CX or XM. In the 70's and 80's Citroens had exceptional "passive antitheft"...worth nothing + small motor + faded paint = steal the magna next door instead.

 

[JBN]

I think that the average car thief thinks that CITROEN means condom in French, and no self respecting prick should be seen in one.

John

 

[forumnoreason]

leave it in low and unlocked, that'll trick them! I'd take the Magna also, least you know it won't break down before you torch it.

 

[Citroenfan]

So right. I wasn't wanting to go there either.....

John,

1) Dextron will not harm any of the green or white banded seals in an LHM based car (green components).

2) It will not cause any more or less component wear than LHM will.

3) Has corrosion inhibitors (just as LHM does) to protect metal components

4) OTOH there are sufficient differences that, personally, I would not recommend its (Dextron) use - except in an emergency - in a BVH Cit. While it will not harm any of the components, the BVH system was not designed to handle a fluid with Dextron's specifications. It is far more 'thick' or viscous compared to LHM and it viscosity has a far greater rate of change with temperature than does LHM Plus. And the BVH controls (Viscosity Flow compensator for one) cannot be adjusted sufficiently to accommodate it. At least that has been my experience with a couple of BVH cars that had Dextron in their veins. Got the owners to switch over to AeroShell 4 (or equivalent)/Lubriplate -70 (which I personally use) or LHM Plus. Shift problems disappeared .

When looking at the product specifications one needs to be aware what they signify

1) Kinematic Viscosity - not going to go into the mathematical derivation of how it is calculated (easy to look up) - just suffice to say that in normal language it is what most would refer to as how 'thick' a liquid is - typically using water as a base reference. Typically two values are given, one at 40 C and the other at 100C

2) Viscosity Index - this is a calculated value based on a fluids viscosity change or resistance to change over a wide range of temperatures. The higher the number the more viscosity stable (if one will) a fluid is.

3) Pour Point - just as the name says. This is the lowest temperature that the liquid will pour.

4) Density or Volumetric mass - how much a specific volume of the fluid weighs.

If you look at the attached images (screen shots) of the relevant tables from the specification pdf's, you will find the following differences between Dextron 11 and LHM Plus

A) Dextron, at 40C) is just a bit over 2X as viscous as LHM (as in 'thicker') - 43 vs 18

B) Viscosity Index of Dextron is less than 1/2 of LHM+. 168 vs 355

C) Volumetric Mass is only about 3% higher.

In case anyone is wondering about the difference between LHM and LHM Plus - it is the VI index. Went from 320 to 355. This property is controlled by the use of long-chained polymers that coil and or expand as fluid temperature changes.

Personally I used Dextron for a few years in BVM cars with absolutely no problems - then switched over to one of the MilSpec Aircraft fluids as their specifications (Viscosity and Viscosity Index) were a better match for LHM. OTHO this was always in California where seasonal temperatures, in the Winter, rarely got below 40F (4 to 5 C) - though summer temps did go above 100F (40+). Then I acquired a BVH D in 2002. And I quickly found out that the Dextron had to go . Given that LHM and LHM Plus were very expensive, at the time, here in the States I settled on a mineral oil based industrial hydraulic fluid that had the same Viscosity value as LHM and an even higher Viscosity Index - though not by much.

Steve

 

[Armidillo]

Since I've already hijacked this thread (which was about flushing) - what about industrial/agricultural hydraulic oils?

Nulon & Penrite both make readily available hydraulic fluids. Most of their products have Viscosity indexes around 100, and high 40C KVs, so presumably a bit too different, however there's a couple of options that ma be worth a look?

Penrite Indus HV32 has KVs of 30 & 6.1 and Viscosity index of 157.

Nulon's HVI 46 has KVs of 45 & 8 and Viscosity index also 157.

Assuming availabilty (& sensible pricing), are these a viable option?

Cheers

Alec

 

[Citroenfan]

Since I've already hijacked this thread (which was about flushing) - what about industrial/agricultural hydraulic oils?

Nulon & Penrite both make readily available hydraulic fluids. Most of their products have Viscosity indexes around 100, and high 40C KVs, so presumably a bit too different, however there's a couple of options that ma be worth a look?

Penrite Indus HV32 has KVs of 30 & 6.1 and Viscosity index of 157.

Nulon's HVI 46 has KVs of 45 & 8 and Viscosity index also 157.

Assuming availabilty (& sensible pricing), are these a viable option?

Cheers

Alec

Alex - Not sure what is available down under, but a quite viable substitute that many used here in the States and most are likely still using is a MilSpec hydraulic fluid for general aviation aircraft. The current version is usually referred to as a MilSpec 5606G fluid (the latest incarnation, if you will). It has a very good VI rating of, typically, 360 to 380. It is a just a bit 'thinner' than the LHM+ rating of 18, coming in with a viscosity 40C value of 14 to 15. The 'only' problem with it, if you will, is that it is red in color. And its use was the subject (along with Dextron) in LHM (mineral fluid based cars) of the flame wars that occurred over here many years ago that Wally was referring to.

Check with a local general aviation airport or aviation supplier and see if they have available any mineral based fluids that meet that standard. Some typical brands are AeroShell 4/Texeco 15 that are available in NA along with others. At lest here in the States the stuff is quite inexpensive.

All of the LHM type fluids use a kerosene base with different additives and anti-corrosion chemicals added, depending on their intended use. When made the color is a pale straw. Oil soluble dyes are added, in some case, to make them quite visually distinctive (LHM and the milspec fluids are good examples).

Steve

 

[JohnW]

Since I've already hijacked this thread (which was about flushing) - what about industrial/agricultural hydraulic oils?

Nulon & Penrite both make readily available hydraulic fluids. Most of their products have Viscosity indexes around 100, and high 40C KVs, so presumably a bit too different, however there's a couple of options that ma be worth a look?

Penrite Indus HV32 has KVs of 30 & 6.1 and Viscosity index of 157.

Nulon's HVI 46 has KVs of 45 & 8 and Viscosity index also 157.

Assuming availabilty (& sensible pricing), are these a viable option?

Cheers

Alec

Why bother? Penrite do LHM, Dexron II seems agreed to be OK. Some Massey-Ferguson stuff uses LHM too. We know these are appropriate.

There are some old threads on this subject, but maybe pre-crash.

Cheers

 

[GreenBlood]

Why bother? Penrite do LHM, Dexron II seems agreed to be OK. Some Massey-Ferguson stuff uses LHM too. We know these are appropriate.

There are some old threads on this subject, but maybe pre-crash.

Cheers

Absolutely!!!
In Australia there is no shortage of LHM+ and there is no indication of a shortage in the foreseeable future. The Brisbane Total distributor will sell 1lt through to barrels of the stuff at wholesale prices and deliver anywhere in the country. I believe there is now a Total agent in Victoria.

Last time I purchased I think I bought a 16lt carton (16 x 1lt bottles) for around $120.00

I know there are heaps of cars running around on Dex11, the issues appear to arise if the cars are converted back to LHM+ (leaks). Given Dex11 is formulated and designed as an automatic transmission fluid, there have been suggestions that some of the additives that aid in its friction as a an ATF can cause premature wear in the Citroen hydraulic system? I'll bow to those with more technical knowledge but would only use Dex11 in an emergency and drain, flush and replace with LHM. Ironically Dex11 has become quite difficult to obtain in Australia.

The green colour of LHM is almost unique in oils, giving little doubt as to what is in the system, anything else leaves an element of doubt.

In Australia at least, why mess with something that works, and given the life cycle of the oil not that expensive?

Cheers
Chris

 

[Armidillo]

Basically I agree John - LHM is available, and not so expensive (for a non-leaking system) as to be a real problem. Just looking for cheaper, readily available alternatives for emergencies and where wastage is likely to be high.

In the city the general spec hydraulic fluids may not be readily available - out here it seems to be more available (and possibly cheaper) than Dex II - let alone LHM+!!! So I don't see why I should make life difficult for myself by ignoring what's under my nose .

Cheers

Alec

 

[Armidillo]

...

Last time I purchased I think I bought a 16lt carton (16 x 1lt bottles) for around $120.00

....

Cheers
Chris

At that price (<$8/litre) I wouldn't be asking these questions either !! The price for a 1 litre bottle is $22 at the local AutoPro, and $15 (plus postage) from CCCNSW.

Cheers

Alec