should I give up?

nJm

nJm

Guru
1000+ Posts
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
2,927
Location
Melbourne, Australia
As most of you know, I'm hunting around for a 505GR or SR sedan with a manual 'box. When I thought I'd finally found one, it turns out I was a day too late - it had been sold.

This is going to be my first car, and I have been determined to get a RWD car with euro character (and I love Pugs!), but since it seems that 505s with a 5spd in Melbourne are extremely rare, and I need to get a car within 2 months maximum (would prefer it now...) I am starting to look at alternatives.

I was wondering if anyone here had opinions, advice or knows where to look for info on the 1983-1987 E30 BMW 318i ? How would parts etc compare in price to those for a Pug?

I hope I do find a Pug in time, but if I don't, I'll have to make do with something else :rolleyes:

thanks for any advice!
 
Nick,

I can help a bit, as I've owned both the E21 320i and an E30 318i. The 318i was very refined, with good brakes and excellent economy. And the parts prices are quite reasonable, plus BMW has a policy of their older parts decreasing in price over time. However, they are no road burner, and you have to be ready to catch the rear end in the wet round faster corners if you back off. They are quite tidy handlers but for this trait, and can be made to be very good. One thing I remember was the quietness and stability at high speed (160+). The engine is basically very simple, being based on what was essentially the same block as they had since the sixties (through the 'neue klasse' 1500 through 1602-2002, first 3 series etc) They are well within the reach of the home mechanic to look after, and are very reliable and strong engines (SOHC, double row chain driven cam etc.) For reference, I got rid of my 320i (same basic engine) at 400,000k and the engine had never been apart, except to replace the timing chains, which can be done without removal of the cover. It was just starting to blow smoke on the overrun (valve guides) but still didn't have any oil smoke under load. Mind you, I was a fanatic about oil changes.

The 318i's are a bit boring though. Shame you couldn't stretch to a 325, as the (same series) 323i isn't unleaded. The small sixes HOWL when you spank them.

Cheers

Stuey
 
I probably can get an E21 straight 6, but it would be stretching it getting an E30 straight 6.

the reason I didn't mention them is I assumed they would be more complex, and have more expensive parts?

maybe not?

thanks again! :)
 
Nick,

FWIW if you really want a 505 manual why not look interstate for one?
I live on the central coast of Queensland and the last 3 cars to come into our family have come from Sydney which is around 1500 klms away.
These days with Virgin Blue & their sub $100 tickets to Sydney from Brisbane I can leave here at dawn, be in Sydney by lunch & sit down to tea at Gunnedah just on dark. Home mid afternoon next day.
Plenty of cars to choose from & so far very enjoyable drives home. :D
For mine it's worth the few extra bucks to get the car I want. Only ads a couple of hundred $'s on the price & with aussiefrogs membership approaching 600, you can bet someone can give you a bit of history on whatever you are looking at :)

Alan S
 
Njm,

505 mechanical parts would most definitely be cheaper than BMW engine parts, but body parts would probably be around the same price. Carby model 404/504/505 mechanical parts are amongst the cheapest of any car because their main markets are places like Nigeria, Kenya, Egypt, Lebanon, Argentina, etc, etc.

A friend of mine replaced his 504 with a very nice 1985 model 323i. The 323i is alot more tail happy than his 504, although he doesn't mind because even in his 504 he loved hanging the tail out on every corner (I only rode with him twice; that was enough for me).

Have you thought about buying a 505 auto and fitting a 4 speed manual BA7 gearbox? The 4 speeds are very cheap, very plentiful and very reliable and don't make much difference to economy (although it is a tad noisier on the freeway).

I think the BMW 3 series would have a better quality and better lasting interior than the 505GR or SR.

Dave
 
Ever considered getting a good 504?,

If you can get over the fact that they are getting fairly old now, they can be really good :)

Mechanically, the 505gr/sr's were more or less the same as a late 504.....

For the same money you were looking at for a reasonable 505 you'd probably get a better condition 504 (504s are a considerably tougher car IMHO)....you can always have a 5spd thrown in it at a later stage.....and with a few minor mods, make it reasonable in a straight line too.

actually, the whole 4spd vs 5spd thang i wouldn't worry about "too" much.....makes more sense to have a good (condition) 4spd or even auto car than an average 5spd....

3 series BMWs are a whole other can of worms, they are a good car, but quite a different car to a 505/504.
They're not directly comparable (505 vs 3series), both had different missions in life :)

The 6cyl bmw 3s are vastly superior to the 4cyl....but engine parts are quite a bit more expensive.

I don't know if i'd buy a BMW as a first car, it's hard enough shelling out for fuel as a new driver, let alone insurance for a bmw :)

*cough*
of course you get ratty series 1 205gtis for just over 5k these days....which from a performance/handling perspective would comfortably drive rings around any of them, regardless of their being RWD (drive one if you doubt it) :D

[ 16 March 2002: Message edited by: DTwo ]</p>
________
WELLBUTRIN LAWSUIT INFORMATION
 
Last edited:
Nick, yeah, I meant the E30. The E21 had some problems in the 6 with head cracks and gasket problems, I believe. Plus the E30 is a much better car all round, in handling, quality, rust resistance, and NVH. The 323i in E30 may be in your range, but as I said, it was leaded only.

The E21 was a bit of a dog in the handling unless you put Bilsteins and stiffer lowered springs all round (and some said a bag of cement permanently in the boot!).

The general parts (other than the engine) for the 6 are no more expensive, just different. Essentially they are the same car, but all the 6's have four wheel discs whereas the base 318 has rear drums. Don't overlook the 320i 6 either, this engine is the sweetest 6 you can get. Like a turbine. As Dave said the BMW quality is much better than the Peugeot.

As an aside I am considering a 1989-ish fully loaded 535i for my next family car...you know, the daggy squarish one that no-one looks twice at :D You can still get these with interiors like new, full leather, steel tilt and slide sunroof (don't underestimate how good these are!) etc. etc. And the venerable 3.5 single cam six good for 400k.

Stuey
 
Yeah, I've been looking at 504s, but just found them a bit too old.

It wouldn't be practical for me to try and go interstate to get a car as I'm in my final year of highschool, and its a long drive from Melbourne to Sydney.

I know that a 3 series is a completely different kettle of fish to a Pug five-oh but they have always appealed to me.

I suppose I'll go and have a look at a few and see what I think. I was just interested to get a rough idea of how much more expensive it would cost to run.

thanks for all the opinions so far,
 
oh, and I looked into converting a 3A 505 to a manual, but apparently the transmission tunnel is a different size, etc and would take a lot of effort and skill to do it (which I don't have), and getting someone else to do it would be too expensive.

[ 16 March 2002: Message edited by: nJm ]</p>
 
Originally posted by nJm:
<strong>oh, and I looked into converting a 3A 505 to a manual, but apparently the transmition tunnel is a different size, etc and would take a lot of effort and skill to do it (which I don't have), and getting someone else to do it would be too expensive.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nick,

Actually it's quite easy because the auto transmission tunnel is much larger than necessary for the manual. It's converting the other way (manual to auto) that's difficult because the manual trans tunnel is not big enough.

The hardest bit about converting an auto to a manual is cutting the bigger hole in the floor to fit the gear stick through, which is actually not too hard with a good steel "nibbler". You just have to make sure your fix the cover plate to the hole effectively. Putting roofing screws every 20mm or so, in conjunction with plenty of silastic windscreen sealant seals them pretty well.

My 504 was an auto and has been converted to manual. The floor pan of my 78 504 is pretty much identical to the 505 floor pan.

I don't consider the conversion to be hard at all. I advise hiring one of those engine lifters (about $40 per day) to lift the engine out. I have pulled the gearbox out from underneath, without removing the engine, but it's a bastard of a job unless you've got really really strong arms (that's with the 4 speed; I wouldn't even try an auto or 5 speed this way). Removing and replacing the engine on these cars is a piece of cake (compared with most other cars), although the 505 is a little harder in my experience than the 504 due to all the crap on the firewall.

Dave
Click to expand...
 
Stuey,

I was cruising around a while ago and on my way home i noticed a black bmw in my rear view mirror
Yes it was a black 535i with what looked like 18's or 19's polished and when we stopped at a set of lights i noticed the full cream leather interior and a nice sounding sound system.
That was a hot car and for around 10 to $15000 at the auctions it makes you wonder why anybody that has a little smarts would buy a ford or a holden.
I don't know about not being noticed especially in the one i run into.
They have a bullit proof engine and driveline and beutifull handling manners (I think you can't go wrong)
It was big bucks when it was new and now the price has come down heaps as people r scared of them especially when they have a few km's on them little do they know they r just run in.
I think it would make a solid quality family and even a sports car.

Murat
 
Murat,

Exactly! If you can get the M version (the Aussie one doesn't have the M engine, but just the cosmetics and suspension) you get leather Recaros too. I reckon they're a bargain for what you get - quality, performance and comfort in a practical body. Must admit, when you pull a BM apart, you can see where the money goes.

Sorry to the others about the OT German flavour here.

Stuey
 
504s are heading more towards "classic" than "modern" in the way they look these days....i don't think they actually lose much in the way of fittings/creature comforts over a 505gr/sr.

They are not a seriously old car to drive.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong....but i think the later 504s could be had with aircon, powersteering, sunroof, tachos? etc etc.....i think the only thing they miss over a GR/SR is power windows?

The 505gr/sr vs late 504 choice would be one more of cosmetics than otherwise.

Is it just me, that thinks really beaten up 504 still looks alot better than a really beaten up 505 :D

OT, driven normal 535 or two, great cars.......one of my friends has a "real" (suspension/stripes/getrag 5spd close ratio) M 528 of the same shape, an impressive handing car (run rings around him in the 205 btw) :) ........an M535 would be quite a car.
________
Volcano Vaporizer
 
Last edited:
Just out of curiosity; we keep talking Bimmers to a guy who was originally talking 505's.
How do prices compare? and if not reaally in the same ball park, wouldn't a 405 be a viable option?
Some of those are getting sub 7 grand these days :confused:

Alan S
 
DTwo,

In response to your questions:

-probably half the 504s made after 75 here have air-conditioning
-all fuel injected 504s and 1979+ 504GLs have tachos, and they are easy to fit to other models
-the 504LTI (made in late 1975 and early 1976 only) had front power windows, a sunroof, air conditioning, tacho and fuel injection. The power window mechisms are identical to 604 front power window mechanisms. They are simpler than many power window systems, but personally I can't see the advantage of them, except for in winter when you put the passenger window down and up to scrape the mist off it, so you can see through it at intersections.
-no Australian made 504s had power steering, but the system fitted to 604s and 505s fits straight in

I agree, 504s and early 505s feel pretty much the same to drive.

Dave
 
Cheap 505;

I found this advert for a 505 on the Toymods forum, someone in here mya be interested. Not sure what gearbox it has though.

<a href="http://toymods.qnix.com.au/viewthread.php?FID=2&TID=4442" target="_blank">http://toymods.qnix.com.au/viewthread.php?FID=2&TID=4442</a>
 
Alan,

Nick asked about Bimmers; it wasn't just offered :D The model he mentioned starts a bit higher than a 505 - around $8k last time I looked.

Admittedly I became self indulgent mentioning the 535i - sorry about that!

Stuey
 
Actually, i've been looking at E21 and early E30 318i's for around $3000-$6000.

They aren't that flash, no leather or anything like that. Are similar in price to a good condition 505 (or a really poor condition 405 :D )
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top