R10 Automatic Problems, and Adjustments.

Its a 3 speed, in the parts book its listed as BP325.

That MR63 doesnt show this gearbox. Though most everything else shown, is the same. For what ever reason, the autos have 2 drain plugs.

I'll mount the new modern relay up on somewhere around the firewall(coolest place possible!). Under a car, caked in grease, freezing in the air- is not a good place for one. Of course I wont cut any wires, on the off chance some other weird-o wants to make it "Perfect". :geek:
 
The gearbox is the regular 325 (three speed fully synchronized) as used on the Dauphine and some R8s. The front and rear of the case are different - the rest is the same as manually shifted cars. I seem to remember seeing that box listed as one of the factory installed gearboxes for three speed R8s and Caravelles. The Dauphine gearboxes after 1959 had two drain plugs. The fill plug was raised at some point to increase the amount of oil in the gearbox. All the 325 gearboxes had the raised plug. I think the 325 came out in late 1961.

I had my shifter assembly apart once. Be very careful to put everything back properly. The book gives the correct position of the actuator for re-assembly. There is a plug that can be removed to get the shifter in the correct position. I am sure the motor needs lubricant just as old wiper motors and heater motors do. My 4cv wiper motor would barely turn due to old hard grease.

These automatics work great when everything is functioning properly. I had at least three years of trouble-free service. It drove the same as if someone were shifting a manual box. I think it might be time to take the engine out again and try to fix the synchronization switch. When mine went bad, it downshifted badly and sometimes did not engage smoothly. My hope is that the contact is accessible and can be cleaned. The book also says one symptom is that the clutch does not engage. That might be a problem you are having upshifting, but the shifter motor might be having a hard time completing the shift if it needs lubrication.

Keep at it, you are getting close!
 
So my theory on using a modern style of relay just won't work. That solenoid must work perfectly, to tickle a detent. That allows proper shifting.

Since I lost a piece to the up spring mechanism, , and then later maimed it. There's no fixing this one..

With that said, a guy on the USA renault groups. Has 2 whole selector mechanisms, and is sending them for free(I just cover shipping).

He has had much experience with the autos. None of it good. At one point, he wanted to take aR10 to the local dealer(late 70s).

That had the fancy tester. The dealer said no, don't bring it. We won't fix it... They had seen far too many by that point.
 
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And now a further peek inside...
IMG_20231211_223217_(1080_x_1080_pixel).jpg
IMG_20231211_223233_(1080_x_1080_pixel).jpg
 
I think it was the selector solenoid getting stuck, due to old grease.

I later realized the motor has a brake inside of it. So when off, it should be hard to turn.

I cleaned 3 sets of contactors, that live behind the white plastic gear. They where absolutely filthy.

If this go around doesn't sort it out, or make a decent improvement. A 4spd it will be.

If the engine comes back out, so shall the automatic..

So far nothing about this system makes me feel I can trust it.
 
I think now is a good time to put it aside until you forget how frustrating it is. To put it in perspective, it's not as bad as the constant operating system updates on my iphone. There just aren't words bad enough to describe it. I guess I could say "OH BELGIUM!!!!###!!!"
Maybe you could try that.
 
It's still on hold, no parts have come yet. I'm kinda over it in general. Very hopeful with the new to me selectors will sort it out..

I'm also realistic,and prepared to find, and swap a 4spd in. I'd hate to do it though.

Couldn't be many of these autos left.
 
Stan W said:
I think now is a good time to put it aside until you forget how frustrating it is. To put it in perspective, it's not as bad as the constant operating system updates on my iphone. There just aren't words bad enough to describe it. I guess I could say "OH BELGIUM!!!!###!!!"
Maybe you could try that.
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Sound advice.
leregulage said:
It's still on hold, no parts have come yet. I'm kinda over it in general. Very hopeful with the new to me selectors will sort it out..

I'm also realistic,and prepared to find, and swap a 4spd in. I'd hate to do it though.

Couldn't be many of these autos left.
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Very few indeed! According to the records, there are a few licensed in England. None in Oz, almost certainly. There is the odd Ferlec car here, with an automatic clutch but a manual gearbox. I imagine practically none were sold in France but don't know.

Better luck next year. Have a great and peaceful Christmas in the meantime. :)
 
leregulage said:
So out the selector came. Somehow I've got to disassemble it, and figure out what's going on.... Let the games begin!
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AlexB said:
mmm, from the description I'd expect the sync switch to be two contacts with zero resistance so the 1.5k must be a poor earth somewhere.
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While the actuator is removed it's worth checking how well the sync switch gets earthed through the actuator grounding spring.
Are the black marks visible inside the red circles wear marks or crud that would reduce conductivity?
If you shove a multimeter probe where the blue arrow of the spring would locate, what's the resistance with the other probe touching the flywheel?

The paper gasket makes me think the spring which rubs on the 6 pointed star ribs then gets its earth from one of the wires in the Selector Motor or Actuator plugs, so try and work out which wire provides the earth back to the relay box and check the resistance from the 6 pointed star to this wire.


Actuator Grounding Sprong.jpg




1703909231178.png
 
I don't have anything helpful to add, but I have found this one of the most interesting threads in ages. I am fascinated by this technology - both crude and advanced at the same time.
Leregulage, I wish you well with it and I hope you can get the auto working well.
The more it drives you crazy in the repair process, the sweeter the victory when you get it right!
 
Those little marks can be seen in person- around the spring area. I checked before removing everything, the spring did its job, made full contact-ground.

I'm still waiting on the mail, for two complete shifter units. I"m mostly confident it will at least shift..... How well, and long- I'd guess 1 day.. :p

Now in more exciting news. Another Renault guy near me, might have access to the factory Automatic test box. We know the guy had it, but where in the massive shop it is?
 
leregulage said:
Nearest port would be Baltimore, MD. Or Newport, VA.

Something is going to happen with this car soon. One way or another! ;)
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Not sure I would want it going through Baltimore - I've seen The Wire, I know what goes on down at those docks...
 
leregulage said:
Those little marks can be seen in person- around the spring area. I checked before removing everything, the spring did its job, made full contact-ground.

I'm still waiting on the mail, for two complete shifter units. I"m mostly confident it will at least shift..... How well, and long- I'd guess 1 day.. :p

Now in more exciting news. Another Renault guy near me, might have access to the factory Automatic test box. We know the guy had it, but where in the massive shop it is?
Click to expand...
That's potentially very good news! Hope he can find it and that you have a successful New Year in every way!
 
leregulage said:
I think it was the selector solenoid getting stuck, due to old grease.
I later realized the motor has a brake inside of it. So when off, it should be hard to turn.
I cleaned 3 sets of contactors, that live behind the white plastic gear. They where absolutely filthy.
Click to expand...

I'm hoping the AF brains trust can tell me if the gear lever on a 3 spd Dauphine is spring loaded to the 2/3 side ?

My thinking is that the electro-magnet solenoid selects which fork the motor will push/pull.
With the solenoid off my guess is the motor will likely push/pull the 2nd/3rd fork, and with solenoid activated the motor will push/pull the Reverse/1st fork. Is the brass bit under the green arrow connected to the solenoid?
Electrically my guess from your notes earlier is that pin 12 contacting pin 27 indicates solenoid is on 2nd/3rd fork and pin 12 contacting pin 26 indicates solenoid is on Reverse/1st fork.

The 3 contactors under the white gear I reckon are position switches to indicate the selector fork in use has pushed or pulled into gear or is back in Neutral resting on the spring detent and it's safe for the solenoid to change to the other fork if required.
Would you be able to trace out the 7 pin plug to the motor wiring and position switches?

Cleaning the solenoid and those 3 contactors will likely make quite the difference to the up/down shifts not finding a gear.




Actuator.jpg
 
AlexB said:
I'm hoping the AF brains trust can tell me if the gear lever on a 3 spd Dauphine is spring loaded to the 2/3 side ?

My thinking is that the electro-magnet solenoid selects which fork the motor will push/pull.
With the solenoid off my guess is the motor will likely push/pull the 2nd/3rd fork, and with solenoid activated the motor will push/pull the Reverse/1st fork. Is the brass bit under the green arrow connected to the solenoid?
Electrically my guess from your notes earlier is that pin 12 contacting pin 27 indicates solenoid is on 2nd/3rd fork and pin 12 contacting pin 26 indicates solenoid is on Reverse/1st fork.

The 3 contactors under the white gear I reckon are position switches to indicate the selector fork in use has pushed or pulled into gear or is back in Neutral resting on the spring detent and it's safe for the solenoid to change to the other fork if required.
Would you be able to trace out the 7 pin plug to the motor wiring and position switches?

Cleaning the solenoid and those 3 contactors will likely make quite the difference to the up/down shifts not finding a gear.




View attachment 233435
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Not spring loaded to my knowledge. On the 4-speed 318 boxes, there is a spring-loaded system inside the gearbox to prevent accidental engagement of reverse when changing into second gear, reverse being across to the left of the 1-2 plane and back. I stand to be corrected but I don't remember driving any RER with spring loading to either plane.
 
Found this troubleshooting info in a Chilton's Renault manual.
 

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AlexB said:
I'm hoping the AF brains trust can tell me if the gear lever on a 3 spd Dauphine is spring loaded to the 2/3 side ?

My thinking is that the electro-magnet solenoid selects which fork the motor will push/pull.
With the solenoid off my guess is the motor will likely push/pull the 2nd/3rd fork, and with solenoid activated the motor will push/pull the Reverse/1st fork. Is the brass bit under the green arrow connected to the solenoid?
Electrically my guess from your notes earlier is that pin 12 contacting pin 27 indicates solenoid is on 2nd/3rd fork and pin 12 contacting pin 26 indicates solenoid is on Reverse/1st fork.

The 3 contactors under the white gear I reckon are position switches to indicate the selector fork in use has pushed or pulled into gear or is back in Neutral resting on the spring detent and it's safe for the solenoid to change to the other fork if required.
Would you be able to trace out the 7 pin plug to the motor wiring and position switches?

Cleaning the solenoid and those 3 contactors will likely make quite the difference to the up/down shifts not finding a gear.




View attachment 233435
Click to expand...

The top green arrow is a long brass rod, with a spring, and those 2 brass cones. They just ground out when the levers are at a certain spot.

When going between D N R only the left lever moves, the other is locked. What I didn't think about when messing with that relay. The long pointy end, engages a wee detent, through both of the levers.

So a standard 5 pin relay can easily replicate how it works, but not make it shift... No rod to wack the detent, no shifty!
 
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