Pug 308 EB2DTS: rough idle, vibration, loss of power

KrisPat

KrisPat

New member
Tadpole
Joined
Jul 31, 2021
Messages
10
Location
Sydney NSW
Hello all.

I am at the brink of giving up in despair with my manual 308 (2015 non GTi). The problem started when it died with all lights flashing on the dashboard + limp mode during a long-ish drive on the motorway back in Jan 2021. I towed it to a nearest mechanic who replaced the spark plugs and got me going. But the car wasn't as smooth. I took it to the authorised service centre who identified the spark plugs being wrong and replaced them again. The car still wasn't as smooth - I mean engine vibrated at high speeds. I was told it will take some time to "learn". A few months later I took it to another authorised service centre who advised me that the problem is due to carbon buildup and will need a walnut blasting process that costs upwards of 2000 AUD. I took another opinion from the first service centre (who had replaced the spark plugs) and they too told me the same + VVT solenoid servicing (or replacement) with a total estimate of 3000+ AUD.

Fault code (according to the service centre) is:

PE0091 = super knock and intake VVT solenoid. Vehicle will require carbon clean $2500 supplied and fitted. VVT solenoid for manifold $500 supplied and fitted.

Car has around 60K on the odo (30K under my ownership) and my use is 80% motorway, 20% suburban.

A few more opinions I've received from other service centres were:
- vibration is due to the engine mount.
- vibration is due to the transmission mount.
- vibration is due to the drive shaft/ cv-axle.

I know of carbon buildup problems in direct injection engines but that is easily solved with carby cleaners. This car however seems to have been built in a way that is next to impossible to carry out such servicing at home - I couldn't find the intake valve to spray in the cleaner, seems it sits at the back of the engine underneath the windshield.

Fuel additive seems to have helped to some extent. May be I should repeat this additive a few more times? This also reminds me that I must admit I've used the wrong fuel (E10) during first 4 to 5 months of my ownership but that was back in early 2019. I've been using premium 95 since.

Is it safe to plug in my own generic OBD2 scanner to try and figure out myself?
Can someone please also suggest me a service centre who can help me with the throttle body clean without having to go through the walnut blast process- i.e. using Liqui Moly, CRC, etc.? The authorised service centre flatly refused to do this and are pushing me for the expensive walnut blasting process instead.

TIA.
- Kris.
 
Your code isn't in the system. P followed by 4 hex numbers. Get an OBD reader anyway or use what you have.

When my DS3 needed a clean it recorded no OBD errors and no flashing lights. The main symptom of carbon build up is misfiring as the fuel air ratio is affected. I cleaned it over about 7 hours by hand - dismantle the inlet system on day one, overnight solvent soak (Peugeot sell the solvent) and next day a few hours hand scraping the ports with a mirror, and re-assemble. Even done professionally you are in front of $2000.

Familiarity with the engine helps with the several fixings you need to undo and redo blind or by feel.

Fuel carby additives do little and periodic solvent sprays into the intake, engine running, before oil changes only postpone the problem. You don't need to get under the windshield - anywhere after the turbo will do.

My motorised throttle has never been clogged. It is under the inlet manifold.

The lights suggest something else. The only dealer in Sydney I'd leave the car with is Continental Cars at Punchbowl. There are specialist non-dealers, such as Colliers at Granville.
 
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If you ask people on here the late ep6s don’t have problems lol
But as seesink says it’s not overly hard to do it your self but unless you do it correctly you may think you have eliminated that as the fault and start chasing other issues I would be getting the timing checked as well and make sure the latest software is in the engine ecu also what type of oil do you use.
 
dmcc above is a mechanic. Note what he said.

The car should always have been on 95 petrol as like other Euro cars it was designed for it.

If you think about the clagging problem, it is oil vapour and droplets from the engine crankcase and from the turbo bearing entrained in the combustion air. It lodges and burns on the inlet ports in the head and valve stems where, with direct injection, there is no petrol to wash it away. It burns into a hard extremely adherent residue, "ash". Eventually the build up changes the airflow and there is insufficient air in the cylinder.

Cleaning solvents in the fuel cannot reach it. I have started using low ash oil in my car, using the same stuff specified for Pug and Cit diesels (Total Quartz Ineo ECS) , in the hope of extending the maintenance interval. High ash oils bring the problem around quicker.

Misfiring might cause shakes, but it isn't really vibration. Bad or wrong plugs will cause error lights and codes, as the unburnt fuel in the exhaust threatens the expensive catalytic converter. The radiator fans may have responded alarmingly also.

The turbo engines use specific NGK or Bosch Iridium tipped plugs. You can buy them and all the other service items at EAI at Thornleigh, delivered by courier for a sensible price. To change the plugs you will need a thin walled 14mm plug socket. The long ones made by Toledo for this engine are very convenient.
 
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Gee what a coincidence I have the same model/year/engine and just started to get a ticking noise on cold start. Seems it is the chain and tensioner. Car has been very reliable up until now and still drives beautifully aside from this ticking for around 10 seconds on a cold start. Thankfully this shouldn't be too difficult to fix, but I will have to get onto it soon.
 
The chain job is described elsewhere, but it has a couple of tricky or unexpected bits - locking the cam shafts (there is a tool for this) and making a dummy tensioner out of the old one.
 
I got some advice from dmcc. Going to try and remove the cover and check the guide tomorrow morning. I will order a new tensioner as well. If the tensioner fixes everything I will be happy, that seems like a quick and easy DIY job although the access is a bit fiddly. Hopefully I don't have to replace the chain.. that might be a bit tricky. Car only has ~75,000k so I doubt it is the chain. Looking like guide or tensioner.. I hope. Would have thought these issues would have been solved by the time the T9 arrived.
 
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Would have thought these issues would have been solved by the time the T9 arrived.
That’s what psa would have people believe
 
Thank you all for the responses.

@dmccurtayne : I don't know about which oil, I rely on the service centres to use the right one, never bothered to ask them which.

Co-incidentally today I noticed "oil too low" message. I've never seen this before. The car was serviced with oil and oil filter change recently a few weeks ago. I checked and it really is way below the 'min' mark.

I did connect my OBD2 scanner and it returned back this fault code:
P0011
A camshaft position timing over & Advanced or system performance bank 1

@dmccurtayne, someone above said you are a mechanic. Will you help me with these problems? I can come to you.
 
In 2018 I had the inlet valves on my DS5 petrol engine walnut blasted by a place in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne that specializes in BMWs. It cost $800 including a new engine cover gasket. But access was a bugger compared with BMWs and Minis. It would help if the owner removed the scuttle panel first. If I was trying to do it myself and access was awful I might think about supporting the weight of the engine then removing the RHS engine mount and the one underneath to allow it to move forward a bit. Admittedly, this might require removing the front panel and moving the radiator support panel if things got tight.
 
KrisPat said:
Thank you all for the responses.

@dmccurtayne : I don't know about which oil, I rely on the service centres to use the right one, never bothered to ask them which.

Co-incidentally today I noticed "oil too low" message. I've never seen this before. The car was serviced with oil and oil filter change recently a few weeks ago. I checked and it really is way below the 'min' mark.

I did connect my OBD2 scanner and it returned back this fault code:
P0011
A camshaft position timing over & Advanced or system performance bank 1

@dmccurtayne, someone above said you are a mechanic. Will you help me with these problems? I can come to you.
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Where abouts in Sydney are you? James at PQ automotive in Chatswood has experience with these engines and I'm sure would be able to help. I'm not sure the fix would be cheap, but I'd always go for a trusted Indi rather than dealer service.
 
Low oil level can definitely give you the cam shaft codes it uses oil to move the cam shaft hubs. I have retired now after over 20 years in dealer land and won’t be doing any mechanical cashies due to health. But if you have a ep6 engine that has used possibly 2 and a 1/2 litres of oil in a few weeks I would be topping that thing up and trading it in asap I’m a psa car nut but that motor is a dog also if it’s using oil and you try to rebuild it you can’t rehone the bores they are plated from factory and use low friction rings of only one size.
 
Here is a Mini version of the same problem :


There is lots on the internet about the failures of the Prince engine.
 
This guy is a bit over the top, BUT ... the Minis ( which share the Prince engine ) are also problematical.

 
dmccurtayne said:
Low oil level can definitely give you the cam shaft codes it uses oil to move the cam shaft hubs. I have retired now after over 20 years in dealer land and won’t be doing any mechanical cashies due to health. But if you have a ep6 engine that has used possibly 2 and a 1/2 litres of oil in a few weeks I would be topping that thing up and trading it in asap I’m a psa car nut but that motor is a dog also if it’s using oil and you try to rebuild it you can’t rehone the bores they are plated from factory and use low friction rings of only one size.
Click to expand...
It boggles the mind how we can go from engines that last hundreds of thousands of kays to engines that destroy themselves at 60,000 kays. All to save a little fuel. No mention of the resources wasted in constant remanufacturing.
 
Peugeot have persisted with the Prince engine and it is in all their current models, so guess we can expect these owners to be experiencing the same issues in a few years time. Amazing that they still have not perfected these engines after all these years, and I have learnt the chain, tensioner and guides have all been revised numerous times. I got a tensioner today and will be installing it ASAP and hope it fixes the problem, I have caught it early and it's only minor, doesn't sound as bad as those Mini's in the video above. Getting the cover off the engine to examine the top guide seems a bit tricky and I don't want to have to install a new gasket, so will be crossing my fingers its just the tensioner causing the issue as that is an easy replacement. It's a shame because these engines are great when running properly.
 
The retarded one in the YT video is the narrator, Scotty. Releasing the pump drive isn't tricky. And what's so terrible about nylon manifolds?

He got stuck into "retarded" twin 6V batteries as well - I wonder if he noticed the combined amp.hours. He should have looked at a heavy vehicle.

He failed to see that this and other new engines are designed to comply with increasingly restrictive pollution rules.
 
fritzelhund said:
This guy is a bit over the top, BUT ... the Minis ( which share the Prince engine ) are also problematical.

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It's because he doesn't understand the use of this tensioner.
It disengages the water pump to help the engine warm up faster.
In the Peugeot, it's very easy to access. Not their fault that Minis have a micro engine bay.
 
Their are quite reliable if you use BMW LL01 oil.
If you're going to use the shitty low SAPS oil recommended by PSA, then expect to hate the car, the engine & PSA after a few years of ownership.
pugtastic said:
Peugeot have persisted with the Prince engine and it is in all their current models, so guess we can expect these owners to be experiencing the same issues in a few years time. Amazing that they still have not perfected these engines after all these years, and I have learnt the chain, tensioner and guides have all been revised numerous times. I got a tensioner today and will be installing it ASAP and hope it fixes the problem, I have caught it early and it's only minor, doesn't sound as bad as those Mini's in the video above. Getting the cover off the engine to examine the top guide seems a bit tricky and I don't want to have to install a new gasket, so will be crossing my fingers its just the tensioner causing the issue as that is an easy replacement. It's a shame because these engines are great when running properly.
Click to expand...
 
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