Pug 205 - Redo from start

D

dangermouse

New member
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Feb 3, 2002
Messages
7
Location
Sydney
Greetings from a new user,

I'm currently embarking on a 205 GTi (XU9J1) rebuild and have (just a couple) of questions for the technically minded...

The Pug 205 1.9L motors had a range of compressions from 8.4:1 to 9.6:1 - was this achieved via domed pistons or some more fundamental change (another alteration in stroke, for example)? What is the highest compression people have been running with generally available fuels (e.g. Optimax)?

Does anyone know of a workshop (pref. in Sydney) capable of blue-printing a wet-liner'd engine block?

I also have a taste for forged components - anyone know of a good competition parts shop - I'm guessing that the UK might be involved here?

And the final question: Who is this Redo, and where is Start?


Cheers,

Tony
 
Dangermouse.
Your best bet for good performance from a 205, would prob be a Mi16 motor. approximate power gains from the 1.9 8v are shown here

<a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug2058v.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug2058v.htm</a>

and the Mi16 here

<a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm</a>

as you can read, the maximum "streetable power from the 1.9 is about 180 hp, while the Mi16 can get 200 with just a big valve head and some good cams, while 220 hp is avaliable with aftermarket injection.

Anyway, have a read and see what you think
Regards
Ken

EDIT:
Oh and to answer one of your questions, euro spec mi16's have 10.4:1 compression and run fine on optimax

[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: AxGT ]</p>
 
AxGT - that link for the 205 8v engine guide contains some excellent information! But I don't think he wants to upset the balance of the car with a heavier motor (and come across all the other problems related to the Mi16 conversion).. hence his questions specifically about the 205's 1.9 motor...

One thing to throw in though... what were the power differences between the English and Australian GTis (I know it was substantial) and what accounted for them?

cheers
Adrian

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: ntrx ]</p>
 
Point taken, the Mi16 motors are a bit exy too.
Well, the power differences were that the early motors (75 kw) had lower compression, and the cat in the exhaust, probably ignition timing too, the new motors (90kw) were up to spec with the english ones.
pretty sure the compression change was a different head

here is a link to the different types of 205, with their power output

<a href="http://www.peugeot-faq.auto.ru/gti/205/205gti_d.html" target="_blank">http://www.peugeot-faq.auto.ru/gti/205/205gti_d.html</a>

you will also find that the citroen BX 19 TRi uses the 75 kW motor, while the BX 19 TRi 122, and TZi use the 90 kW motor. The TRi 122 and TZi both use Bosch Motronic Engine management, which could account for some of the difference in power outputs.

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: AxGT ]</p>
 
That's strange,

I've driven a BX19tri (well I own one) and a TRI 122, if anything my BX19TRI felt a little quicker.... :confused:

Maybe that's because we've 'almost' run it in now, it's done over 240,000km where as the TRI 122 had only done just over 100,000 :p

seeya,
Shane L.
 
Ive found that the 19 Tri 122's carbon up alot easier than the Tri's, we have a TRi 122, and when we first got it , it went like a scalded cat, a fair bit better than the cousins TRi, but theses days, its a fair bit slower.
anyways
for performance parts also try
<a href="http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.gmcmotorsport.co.uk/</a>
these guys mainly deal with 106's and AX's but do have some stuff for the XU series engines
 
Prior to headwork developments on a 205gti - would it be better purchasing the later model head and starting from there, or is it merely a shaved version of the same thing?

Also, on this point, is the 90kw head a 16 valve jobby or is that saved for the Mi16? Does the Mi16 head in fact fit on the older block with reasonably sane modifications?

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: ntrx ]</p>
 
im pretty sure getting the head shaved would have the same effect - maybe a better camshaft too.
the 90kw motor is still 8v.
also the mi16 motor bottom end is very similar, just has thicker liners, but im not sure if all the water passages would line up.
btw, the mi16 motor weighs bugger all more than the 8 v
both all alu

its not the same as the motor in your gti6 -
that one is the same fam, but alloy head, cast block

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: AxGT ]</p>
 
Just remember that 16 valves is not always necessarily better than 8 valves.
In the case of the Mi16 motor I would prefer one also over the 8V for outright speed but the 8V has huge torque and doesnt need to rev as high as the 16V.
While Toyota had released their 16V Corolla in the early 90's, the 205 remained unchanged up to 1994 with the 8V single cammer with quite some success although it priced itself out of the market with the Classic at the end.
 
Hi All,

I guess the major philosophy here is enjoyment - I'd find a 160-180 BHP 205 quite entertaining to drive. I've had a look at the Mi16 conversions - seems like some crowbar work to get the block tilted and running happily at the new angle. Interesting info on the weight difference though!

AxGT - thanks for the pointers. I'd come across the Puma site before and was using it as a line in the sand to assess the mi16 motor and the hassles of installation.

The mission (and enjoyment) of this vehicle is to specify/rebuild as much as I can - it doesn't have to be the ultimate road weapon (the WRX I've been driving comes a lot closer to that ideal) - but it does have to be massively enjoyable i.e. extremely fast cornering with useful torque/power in the straight. Given that it's a FWD there'll be a limit to applicable power while cornering even with a tasty diff.

From what I'm reading the main rotational components in the XU9 motors can handle quite a few revs using stock components - my main worry is running higher compression + 8000 or so RPM with cast pistons. I'd like a strong enough motor that I can install a near-race cam (+ new intake runners etc etc) and go for a blast at the track/rally. A good (race) motor balancing shop would be useful too...

Then there's the cylinder head. A whole new thread at some point? As a pipe-opener, anyone heard of a slide instead of butterfly type throttle bodies being available commercially (I've been burned by the need to balance a pair of DCOE webers in the past...)?

Cheers,

Tony
 
I thought the heads were the same and the pistons dished more. Pollution 1.9 engines also have the cam timing retarded 4 degrees by way of a different cam pulley.

The remachined head we're working on will be approx. $1500 exchange. But it's early days yet. Looking for a keen volunteer.
 
Tony,

If you wan't to use a rev limit of 8000rpm i would use the mi16 engine with the lighter valve train and better quality gear like the thicker liners, better quality valve guides Silicon Mangenese bronze (Highest Quality)
I am not saying u can't use 8000rpm on the 8v u can but it would be wiser to use a engine that was devoloped to rev much higher.
AXGT the gti6 engine is all aluminium (Head and Block)
The cast iron blocks were fitted to s16's and series2 mi16's and of course the 16v 306 xsi's etc
The low comp engines would be ideal for turbo setups (I am still doing homework on the injectors and fueling requirements)
I am still putting a turbo in the 205 even if i sell it as i have put to much time into it to stop now)
I will be using 4 extra injectors mapped throughout the rev range that way u don't have problems on different cylinders leaning out under boost)
Turbo technics setup used a single injector and that why on the high boost setting they only recommend a certain amount of time before u back off the throttle.
I believe if a car is turbo u should be able to use full boost for as long as u like (Even if u don't u should be able to)
By using the auxillary computer u can pass any immision test as u r still using the factory computer and most likely the extra fuel will be coming higher in the rev range.
Oh about the slide throttles an Australian company designed some for the mx5 bp1.8 engine (I don't think they r worth The trouble unless you r building a touring car (There is problems of them sticking on some cheaper systems)
I would much rather go throttle bodies like Andreas 405 mi16 setup (That way u can toss the webbers if your that way inclined)
Slide throttle's r used to squeaze every inch of power from the leading touring cars,But hey honda have even turned there heads around the way peugeot does with the inlet on the front it is worth around 5-10 hp.

Take it easy
Murat
 
PeterT,

I always wanted to ask when u weld on the alloy head that is (Heat treated)
R u going to strip the whole head even the valve seats so everything does not move in response to the alloy getting softer after adding material by welding.
It will work harden but by the time it does i believe things like seats guides and such will move.
As i am going for my C.A.S.A welding licence to weld on aircraft and always wanting to setup a oven to weld cracked alloy heads and have done a lot of research on the topic.

Murat
 
Murat,

Totally off topic, but have you read about the BMW Valvetronic system that does away with any form of throttle? Basically, it relies on variable lift (right down to nil lift) for the inlet valves, to regulate air intake. Although it sounds complex and therefore expensive, it'll be interesting to see it others take up the technology, since it does away with the inefficiency of a throttle.

Back to the topic..

Stuey
 
Stuey,

Yes I have read a little about it
It sounds great a fully variable valve system by the way of the engine management system.
Because i like basics i thought yeah so what,What is the reliability like.
Apparently they have tested it for a million k's or some high figure like that and coming from bmw it will be throughly tested.
It works with a electric motor siting on top of the valves (Driven by a gear)That is fully controlled by the engine management system.
I have always been a big fan of german cars and engineering.
I relly like the older 325is 6cyl 24v cars (I have a big soft spot for straight sixes)
My uncle had a Audi quattro 4x4 turbo very nice anyway we don't want to bore them with our german car stories unless they wan't to hear about them.


Murat
 
No probs with german cars, but for dangermouse's sake we should try to keep this one on topic


Cheers

Ken
 
Murat,
yes the head has to have new seats and guides. The seats are damaged during the welding process. The new guides are necessary for an accurate origin for the toolpath setup. You end up with a fully reco. high performance head, that would include a reground cam already shimmed and setup. The whole assembly ready to bolt on.
 
Originally posted by PeterT:
<strong>I thought the heads were the same and the pistons dished more. Pollution 1.9 engines also have the cam timing retarded 4 degrees by way of a different cam pulley.

The remachined head we're working on will be approx. $1500 exchange. But it's early days yet. Looking for a keen volunteer.</strong><hr></blockquote>

PeterT, any plans to do the same for a 1.9 mi16 in the near future?

Andreas
Click to expand...
 
I don't think there's any need to change the chamber shape on a 16V head. Flow and compression are excellent already.
 
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