Project Grover

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
When you pick up a torque converter, it seems heavy and really solid. So it's easy to forget that they are a pressure vessel that expands, contracts and changes shape as the engine revs, load, and temperature change!

The TD5 converter is actually slightly smaller (13mm) than the 505 torque converter than I was originally using. With all else being equal, this means that it will probably have a slightly higher stall speed, but I don't think it will be particularly noticeable. What I do like about it is that it has a hardened spline, heavy duty lockup clutch linings and heavy duty torrington bearing installed, so it should be more durable. Also, should it fail, I expect it will be easier to find a replacement than a good 505 unit these days. The TD5 unit I have now came from a 2003 model Discovery II.
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
20201227_155806.jpg


Take 2!

Today I finally refitted the engine, with the modified crankshaft extension, modified TD5 flex plate and heavy-duty TD5 torque converter.

Sofar, everything seems fine - and I actually got brave enough to take Grover somewhere that I had to be there at a certain time - and the trip there and back was uneventful.

I still have some wiring to clean up, but now I can continue playing with the CANBUS stuff and have a crack at integrating the Range Rover steering wheel controls to actuate the ECU's inbuilt cruise control.
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
I've made some tweaks to the transmission controller this morning, and have racked up about 50km cruising around the place testing it. I live in a rather hilly area so it gets a workout. And I'm really happy with the way it's behaving now!

I'd like to reaffirm my confidence in this motor - it is definitely a match for the V8 in normal driving. Sure, when you floor it, it doesn't tear away in a cloud of dust like the V8 could, but it also doesn't need to rev to 5000 RPM, and is perfectly capable of keeping up with traffic without needing more than about half throttle. It's really well suited to the car.

When I work out a way to secure the phone as a camera, I'll take an in-car video of the way it goes.
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
It never ends!

The vehicle has now developed a fueling problem that causes it to just stop under certain conditions - high load, or medium-high load for an extended (20s+) period.

The ECU automatically kills the engine if the injection pressure drops below 120bar. Every time the engine dies, I'm getting bubbles/foaming in the return line from the engine.

My suspicion is that the fuel pressure regulator (internal to the pump assembly in the tank - albeit redundant with the diesel) is leaking and allowing it to suck in air.

Land Rover wasn't kind enough to add an access point under the seat to get to the fuel pump assembly, so the fuel tank needs to come out.
 

salman

New member
Usually the supply hose from filter to pump gets perforation or the o rings on filter housing especially inlet,also the electric connector on filter housing leak in air,remove the connector and should be dry.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
if its the same as the pump in the disco/range rover classic. They can also cycle fuel inside themselves as the internal line leaks. there should be an access hatch under the boot floor (there in in the range rover classic)
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
Usually the supply hose from filter to pump gets perforation or the o rings on filter housing especially inlet,also the electric connector on filter housing leak in air,remove the connector and should be dry.
Thanks Salman. I will inspect them closely - certainly easier than removing the tank!
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
if its the same as the pump in the disco/range rover classic. They can also cycle fuel inside themselves as the internal line leaks. there should be an access hatch under the boot floor (there in in the range rover classic)
Interesting, that would also be a problem. The pump assembly is unique to the P38, but basically the same as a disco or classic rangie except that it only has one output hose and an inbuilt pressure regulator.
The P38 doesn't have an access panel like the earlier ones. It's either tank out, or cut a hole in the floor. I don't want a hole in my floor!
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
it looks almost identical.

s-l1600.jpg


the clear plastic lines in mine were fuel line. Fuel line isn't rated for immersion and breaks down.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand - I've broken it.

I started getting a ticking noise from the back of the engine. A little bit of investigation with a stethoscope (read: piece of garden hose stuck in my ear) indicated that the sound was originating from the back of the crankshaft extension where it joins the flex plate.

It occurred to me that I didn't put a dowel in between the flex plate and the crankshaft extension (but the crankshaft extension is doweled to the crankshaft itself). I hypothesised that what I was hearing was movement between the extension and flex plate. So the engine would have to come out.

Engine out took about 35 minutes. It is so easy, and I am really happy with my intentional 'modularisation' of the powerplant.

Once it was out, the problem became very obvious. The flex plate had cracked all the way around the perimeter of the extension!
View attachment 127127

I immediately panicked - am I dealing with a misalignment somewhere that is causing more stress than necessary on the flex plate? So I set about measuring everything and I have confirmed that everything is in fact perfectly aligned and centered. So I needed to look elsewhere.

If you look closely at the nuts that hold the flex plate on, you can see on some of them that they have been rubbing. Matching marks also showed on the front face of the torque converter. Apparently, when it is all bolted together, there is some interference between these items, and that has been stressing the flex plate.

The flex plate itself was only made from 1.6mm mild steel, which was a bad choice to start with. It's just not strong enough.

So - the solution! I started by sourcing a replacement torque converter, as the existing one had very badly worn splines where it joins the transmission input shaft. The new TC is from a TD5 Land Rover. It is longer than the Peugeot unit, and has a different mounting configuration and pilot spigot size. However, this unit has been fully rebuilt with heavy-duty components.

The new TC uses a three-bolt mounting pattern to the flex plate, instead of four. This allows more 'flex' in the flex plate should it be needed. I also sourced the Land Rover flex plate, which has a remarkably similar bolt pattern to the Peugeot crankshaft. The flex plate is made from 4mm spring steel - so much, much stronger than what I originally fabricated.

I just need to modify the crankshaft extension by shortening it to accommodate the longer TC, and the different spigot sizes.

Hopefully this will make for a much more durable solution!

Did you rebuild the torque converter to V8 specs ? I have a friend that used to own a TD5 discovery and he reckoned fitting the a new torque converter ( built to v8 spec ) improved the drivability of it better than anything else he did (ie: upping the boost ... and all the other "enhancements" ).
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
Did you rebuild the torque converter to V8 specs ? I have a friend that used to own a TD5 discovery and he reckoned fitting the a new torque converter ( built to v8 spec ) improved the drivability of it better than anything else he did (ie: upping the boost ... and all the other "enhancements" ).
The V8 uses a larger diameter torque converter than the TD5, and it wouldn't fit inside my bell housing. The guy I bought this TC from actually replaced it with a V8 one adapted to fit his TD5.

I'm actually quite happy with the way this TC behaves. It's basically the same as the Peugeot TC did. Moving to the V8 one would lower the stall point, and I feel that it would be a disadvantage with the little diesel.
 

DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
The V8 uses a larger diameter torque converter than the TD5, and it wouldn't fit inside my bell housing. The guy I bought this TC from actually replaced it with a V8 one adapted to fit his TD5.

I'm actually quite happy with the way this TC behaves. It's basically the same as the Peugeot TC did. Moving to the V8 one would lower the stall point, and I feel that it would be a disadvantage with the little diesel.

Interesting, I'd assumed the v8 had a higher stall point, that's why it worked well (as you had the motor up on boost before the drive engaged too much). I recall someone saying years ago, if you get the diesels, make sure they are auto. First gear is too high in the manual gearboxs to move a heavy towed load away from stationary if you pull up on a hill (I must admit, I've used low range several times to move away when I've found myself stationary on a steep hill..... with a car trailer or caravan behind me. Why burn the clutch out when you have a whole extra box of cogs sitting there to be used!).
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
Stall speed is a function of many variables, including the design of the torque converter and the torque characteristics of the engine. The same TC might have a different when used with different engines.

The torque converter in Grover seems to stall at about 1800rpm, which is about 200rpm higher than the previous owner reported it stalled in his warm TD5. This suggests that the Peugeot engine is making more torque lower down than the TD5 was.

But with all else being equal, greater diameter torque converter = lower stall speed.

I can't remember how the original setup behaved, it's been too long!

In a tow vehicle or a 4wd, I definitely prefer an auto. The torque converter also functions as a torque multiplier, so a smaller engine can get it off the line more effectively than an equivalent manual would. Certainly Grover has no trouble taking off in high range up my driveway - a moderate upwards slope. I imagine if I was towing a load it might not be so enthusiastic, but as you say - there's always low range!
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
it looks almost identical.

s-l1600.jpg


the clear plastic lines in mine were fuel line. Fuel line isn't rated for immersion and breaks down.
Is that a classic, disco or GEMS P38?

I've done some more playing around, and put a clear plastic hose initially in the return line, and then the supply line to the engine. So I can now confirm that my air bubbles are coming from somewhere aft of the engine!

I've drained the tank, and will pull it out tomorrow.
 
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DoubleChevron

Real cars have hydraulics
everytime I've had air in a diesel pump (older diesels) its been the primer bulb ....... Have you checked the primer bulb ?
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
everytime I've had air in a diesel pump (older diesels) its been the primer bulb ....... Have you checked the primer bulb ?
It doesn't have a primer bulb.

The 90hp DW10 motors had a priming bulb and no in-tank pump. The 110hp motors had an in-tank pump instead, controlled by the ECU.
 

CEyssens

1000+ Posts
I have a DW10 without priming bulb, success of fuel without air is with thorough manual priming of the system. I used a hand pump sucking fuel through the whole system priming it to the return line at the engine.
I don't have the complication of the in tank legacy petrol pickup though, so I could imagine any point that allows air to bleed in can be an issue.
 

Matthew

1000+ Posts
Fit frigging lift pump and say goodbye to air ingress. Did this to my Landcruiser and never looked back. Low pressure (6 psi) walbro
 

Demannu

Demannu-facturing!
Fit frigging lift pump and say goodbye to air ingress. Did this to my Landcruiser and never looked back. Low pressure (6 psi) walbro
Ahh, I think you have it backwards. It's the lift pump that's putting air into the line somehow.
 

Matthew

1000+ Posts
Ah in tank pump, the 307 has one of these that runs for a short time at start up.

Its hard for a lift pump to do this as the line is positive pressure in relation to atmosphere. So it leaks out, no air comes in as would be the case in a negatively pressured system.
 
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