peujohn's new 504 blog

[peujohn]

Welcome to the NEW 504 blog. I have been able to save all the data except for some pictures from the old blog, lost in the Great Aussiefrogs Crash of 2010. My original intent was to repost everything as it was before, but I've decided against this now. Some of the running commentary is a bit out of date. So this will be a new-look blog with the best parts of the old one posted up.

When I bring it up to date I will endeavour to blog about all that's happening with my own 504, as well as links to other 504-related threads on Aussiefrogs, general 504 information, pictures, cars for sale, etc.

Others are also welcome, indeed encouraged, to post anything 504-related that will add value to the blog.

Cheers!

John

 

[peujohn]

The story so far

The 504 I'm currently driving is my third. The first one I had was a 1977 model grey manual sedan. My brother Hayden and I bought this car together, quite cheaply. We later fitted a rebuilt 505 GR engine and 5 speed gearbox to this car, as well as a complete 1980 504 interior. This car was an excellent package, but it was rusty and we eventually sold it.

But it gave me a taste for 504s. I had an Mi16 while we had the 504 and I decided I wanted to buy a really good 504. So when I found the right car, I sold the Mi16. Very sad to see it go, but I was rapt with the new purchase. It came from NSW and was a concours winner in the club. It was a 1980 model, fitted with a 5 speed, GTi rims, Konis, and various other improvements. It was resprayed in a modern silver and was an absolutely stunning car to look at. While I owned it I further improved the car with power steering, negative camber front end, +1mm swaybars, big bore exhaust and electronic ignition. I'll try to provide links to some related threads later.

This car was written off in 2007 when a motorbike overtook and ran into me when I was turning right. It was a big, heavy '80s BMW and made a real mess of the car.

After this happened I toyed with the idea of getting a 505 GTi, but decided I wanted to stick with 504s. I eventually bought a white 1979 manual from Paris Jansen, known as 504freak on the forum, a 504 enthusiast who refurbishes good late model rust-free 504s and sells them on. He also took the wrecked car as a trade-in. Paris fitted power steering to the 1979 car before I bought it. I kept the wheels and Hella H4 headlights off the old car.

 

[peujohn]

Current spec

THE 504, as it sits today:

• 1979 504 GL, white, 225,000 km
• 2.0L petrol
• 505 SR electronic ignition
• big-bore exhaust manifold and engine pipe
• 505 GTI exhaust system with stainless rear section
• chrome tip
• 505 alloy sump
• BA/7 5 speed gearbox
• power steering
• air conditioning with pump mounted on sump
• 505 radiator
• electric cooling fan on radiator
• 604 lower control arms & caster bars (1.5 degrees negative camber)
• 505 GTI 15 inch wheels
• Bridgestone Grid II tyres - 205/60R15
• 505 GTI 27 mm front sway bar
• 604 19 mm rear sway bar
• 505 GTI S1 springs front & rear
• 505 STI Executive blue velour seats front & rear
• brown seats/carpet swapped for blue
• Momo steering wheel
• cruise control
• remote central locking
• driver's footrest
• tinted windows
• Hella H4 headlights

 

[peujohn]

Future plans

The 504 will soon be fitted with a 505 GTI 2.2L engine. See Building a 504 GTI 2.2. I recently bought a low mileage 505 GTI Executive which will serve as a donor car. The original EFI setup will be retained, with a possible upgrade to Megasquirt EFI in the future, depending on how the standard gear goes. This work will be done in Paris Jansen's workshop. Very much looking forward to this! I actually bought a 5 speed manual 604 with plans to use the V6 drivetrain in the 504, but changed my mind about this. A recent drive in a very good 505 GTI assured me that I made the right decision here.

The 604 - now sold on to another frogger, Leon, who has an excellent 504 V6.

I also have a set of TRX wheels converted to 16 inch. Before I fit these though, I need to change the front suspension setup. A trial fit showed the the greater offset of these wheels makes the front track too wide, although the rear track is great. I'm currently trying to track down a set of 1983 or later 504 lower control arms which have a 505 GTI-type balljoint setup, so I can use a set of negative camber struts. This setup will retain the negative camber but give the car a 22mm narrower front track. I may get the wheels sandblasted and repainted. More info about the wheels here: Converting TRX wheels to 16". Thanks to AFer Aquinian.

Other plans:

• lower the 504 a little, perhaps 25mm
• fit a boot release setup
• fit the rear headrests
• fit intermittent wipers

And on the need-to list:

• fit a new rear screen seal, as the original has split. There is a (hopefully) tiny bit of rust under the seal which will be dealt with at the same time.
• Wire up the foglights

 

[dieselnutjob]

I could do with intermittent wipers on my 604

the switch only has off,low and high positions

you can get VW/Audi intermittent relays. What happens is that you turn the wipers on, turn them off, then turn them on again.
The intermittency is then equal to the gap between the "on"s

They have a three position switch (four including "off") but I think I could live with off,intermittent and high

How were you going to do it?

 

[BP505v6Turbo]

intermentent wipers

you get the wiper stalk and wires and motor (i think) off a 1980 504 or later 504 sedan.

 

[peujohn]

Yep, 1980 or later 504s had intermittent wipers as standard equipment. This feature came along with the change to plastic badges on the rear, including "504" on the rear for the first time, along with the deletion of the steel "504" nose badge. My car is a 1980 model according to the compliance plate, but it has the older badges on the back, "504" on the front and no intermittent wipers, so as far as I'm concerned it's a '79.

 

[dieselnutjob]

do the later ones still have the back(sidelights)->down(dipped)->forward(main) arrangement?
any chance of a pic?

 

[Doush_504]

THE 504, as it sits today:

• 1979 504 GL, white, 225,000 km
• 505 GTI exhaust system with stainless rear section
• chrome tip
• cruise control

Only 2000 Km difference between us
Would love to upgrade the exhaust but the rear differential prevents it.
What is the "chrome tip" ?
Could you please give more details about the cruise control ?

Other plans:

• lower the 504 a little, perhaps 25mm

Will be waiting impatiently for that.

Yep, 1980 or later 504s had intermittent wipers as standard equipment. This feature came along with the change to plastic badges on the rear, including "504" on the rear for the first time, along with the deletion of the steel "504" nose badge.

Did not know that. Mine has intermittent wipers and the steel 504 nose badge. Maybe different specs for different countries.

 

[peujohn]

What is the "chrome tip" ?

Chrome exhaust tip. Just a little bit of "bling"!

Could you please give more details about the cruise control ?

I didn't fit the cruise, so I can't tell you too much about it. It's a pretty old kit I would say, the buttons on it aren't the best. It has a small panel with 4 buttons mounted on the dashboard. Under the bonnet there is a control unit which is attached to the throttle cable to regulate the throttle. There will also be a sensor somewhere which reads the road speed, probably on a driveshaft. The system will increase or decrease the throttle to maintain the set speed on hills. Cruise control kits are readily available in auto stores - I think you'd need to be reasonable handy to fit a system to your car.

Did not know that. Mine has intermittent wipers and the steel 504 nose badge. Maybe different specs for different countries.

That's possible, or your car may have been involved in an accident and had the front panel from an earlier car fitted. My previous 1980 model 504 was like that.

 

[Doush_504]

Chrome exhaust tip. Just a little bit of "bling"!.

In that case, I have it too :roflmao:

I didn't fit the cruise, so I can't tell you too much about it. It's a pretty old kit I would say, the buttons on it aren't the best. It has a small panel with 4 buttons mounted on the dashboard. Under the bonnet there is a control unit which is attached to the throttle cable to regulate the throttle. There will also be a sensor somewhere which reads the road speed, probably on a driveshaft. The system will increase or decrease the throttle to maintain the set speed on hills. Cruise control kits are readily available in auto stores - I think you'd need to be reasonable handy to fit a system to your car..

It is available indeed but tooooo damn expensive but they fit it for you not necessarly DIY.

That's possible, or your car may have been involved in an accident and had the front panel from an earlier car fitted. My previous 1980 model 504 was like that.

No it wasn't, it's original

 

[peujohn]

Swaybars

It's only an increase of 1 mm, but fitting a 27mm swaybar to the front and a 19mm swaybar to the rear greatly reduces the bodyroll of a 504.

Standard bars are 26mm and 18mm respectively. 27 mm front swaybars are found on 505 GTIs. The 19mm rear bars come off 604s, so these are a bit hard to find. I had to search for a long time to find one to fit to my current car, but ended up getting one for free! You could expect to pay up to $100 for a 19mm rear swaybar.

The front swaybar is a simple fit - just bolt it in. You will need the correct sized bushes as well as the correct end links, since the design of the ends of the bars is different when you compare 504 26mm to 505 27mm. 505 GRs etc also have a 26mm front swaybar, but the end design is the same as the 27mm bars. These 505 26 mm bars may be a bit stiffer than the 504 items thanks to the different design.

Fitting a 19mm bar to the rear is a bit more involved. The first thing to note is that it's necessary to make a new flat spot for the brake compensator valve. The 604 bar has a flat spot, but it's not in the right location. See the pic:

Another thing is that the 504 and 604 bars aren't exactly the same. The centre section of the 604 bar curves further away. It's necessary to slightly bend part of the car body out of the way to fit the bar in.

 

[peujohn]

504 front end geometry

My 504 currently has a set of 604 lower control arms (LCAs) and caster bars fitted to the front end. The 604 LCAs are 22mm longer than the standard 504 items. Early 505 LCAs are the same as 604s. Fitting these longer arms will move the bottom of the strut further out, giving the front end 1.5 degree of negative camber. Standard, 504s have 0.5 degrees of positive camber which certainly seems like a recipe for understeer.

Fitting the longer LCAs make a wonderful improvement to the steering and turn-in. I would rate this as the greatest single improvement you can make to a 504. It's very beneficial in everyday driving as well as when pushing hard on your favourite road. The turn-in when going through a round-a-bout or similar is so far improved it's amazing. Your 504 will just turn with no scrubbing, understeering feeling.

It's also possible to fit struts and LCAs from a 505 SR or early STI to your 504. These struts use a different, improved type of ball joint which everyone says are much better than the standard 504 ball joints. This will give the same result in terms of negative camber.

The third and best way to get that 1.5 degrees of negative camber is as I mentioned above, to fit 1983 or later 504 LCAs along with 505 GTI negative camber struts. These late model 504 LCAs are the same length as earlier model 504 LCAs, but have the later type of ball joint, so they can be used with the later 505 struts. Struts from a 505 GTI have the stub axle attached at an angle, giving 1.5 degrees negative camber. So using this combination of parts, it's possible to get that much-desired negative camber on your 504 without increasing the track width. This would be beneficial if, for example, you were using alloy wheels with a greater offset than the standard wheels.

The only trouble here is that this type of LCA is like rocking horse manure in Australia. The last 504 wagons sold here in 1983 should have them, otherwise they'll have to come from overseas. Any 504 built from 1983 or possibly 1982 onwards should use these LCAs, including the utes. At the moment I have feelers out to several countries trying to track down a pair of these for use on my car. For the record, they measure 288mm centre to centre. 505 LCAs of the same design are 22mm longer at 310mm centre to centre. Thanks to Bob D for those measurements! If anyone has a pic of the two different types of LCAs it would be good to post it.

The picture below shows the "peujohn" 504 handling kit which is fitted to my car. I just noticed that the LCAs are sitting back to front, so you'll have to ignore that.

 

[peujohn]

Feel like I'm going over a lot of old ground here. Is anybody learning anything??? :crazy:

 

[Doush_504]

Can you please tell me which type of sway bar end I have ? 505 or 504 ?
see pic

The third and best way to get that 1.5 degrees of negative camber is as I mentioned above, to fit 1983 or later 504 LCAs along with 505 GTI negative camber struts. These late model 504 LCAs are the same length as earlier model 504 LCAs, but have the later type of ball joint, so they can be used with the later 505 struts. Struts from a 505 GTI have the stub axle attached at an angle, giving 1.5 degrees negative camber. So using this combination of parts, it's possible to get that much-desired negative camber on your 504 without increasing the track width. This would be beneficial if, for example, you were using alloy wheels with a greater offset than the standard wheels.

The only trouble here is that this type of LCA is like rocking horse manure in Australia. The last 504 wagons sold here in 1983 should have them, otherwise they'll have to come from overseas. Any 504 built from 1983 or possibly 1982 onwards should use these LCAs, including the utes. At the moment I have feelers out to several countries trying to track down a pair of these for use on my car. For the record, they measure 288mm centre to centre. 505 LCAs of the same design are 22mm longer at 310mm centre to centre. Thanks to Bob D for those measurements! If anyone has a pic of the two different types of LCAs it would be good to post it.

​

I attached a picture of the 1982 504 LCAs

Feel like I'm going over a lot of old ground here. Is anybody learning anything??? :crazy:

Very helpful info
Thank you for taking the time to put it back together.

 

[peujohn]

Thanks for the LCA pic, Chadi.

Your swaybars are standard 504. On a 505 swaybar, the end is bent up at right angles. Look at the picture of the swaybars on the grass. The ends have a smaller hole through them. Both ends of the end links are the same, like the bottom end in your pictures.

 

[SLC206]

John,

I know it seems like you are going over old ground, but I'm pretty sure it was a very helpful thread for a lot of people.

Please continue

 

[peujohn]

My 504 rides on 505 STI springs. Some might remember that I said before that I was using a full set of GTI springs; but I've recently ascertained that the car the springs came out of was an STI Executive, not GTI. I'm not sure what difference there is between STI and GTI springs, anyway. If someone else knows, please post.

Colour codes for these STI springs: fronts are blue blue; rears are red red yellow. EDIT: However I've just found in another thread that blue blue and red red yellow are the codes for GTI springs!

I'm very happy with the performance of these springs in my car. After I fitted the springs I posted the following in the old blog:

As for the driving, this car has absolutely brilliant handling now. A good set of rear springs makes a great difference to any 504, especially since most have sagged rear springs anyway. The car feels firmer over bumps and much flatter around corners. Driving along my local test route which has a couple of nice corners, one quite flat and one off camber, I was reminded of my Mi16. Handling is very neutral. Cornering at quite brisk speeds, it feels very composed and safe and capable of going plenty faster.​

After doing 10,000 kays or so with this setup I'm still very pleased. The handling are ride are just how I want them. The suspensions feels taut and tight, there is very limited bodyroll, sharp turn-in and the ride is still supple.

The 504 sits quite nicely with these springs too, due to a couple of things: one, I used spacers under the rear springs to give a bit more height, as I expected the rear to sit low; secondly, this 504 carries extra weight at the front due to aircon, power steering and a 5 speed gearbox - without these the front might sit a bit high. It remains to be seen what happens when the lighter Douvrin engine goes in, too.

Pictured: standard 504 rear spring on the left; STI rear springs on the right.

I mentioned plans to lower the 504 a little. I'll remove the spacers from the rear and see how that goes. For the front I'm not sure. Others have used cut GTI or GR springs, I'll just have to try something like this. Pugnut504 has GR front springs with 2 coils removed on his 504 V6 - this lowers the car probably 2 inches or so. Maybe GR coils sans one coil would suit me.

I have also fitted GR rear springs to 504s with success, in both my previous 504 and my brother Hayden's 504. I wouldn't really call this an upgrade or modification, more of a return to standard equipment. Most if not all 504s getting around would have sagged rear springs, GR springs fix this up nicely. They make a big improvement to handling and load carrying, and even performance, since there is much less power loss in the rear bogging down under acceleration! The way a 504 sits is improved too - slightly tail up rather than tail down.

 

[peujohn]

504 rear spring removal & replacement

The job went well, it took about an hour to do the second side. I used Pugrambo's technique as described in this thread: 504 TI rear spring removal. I would recommend this method, it works well and is nice and safe. I swapped the rear springs in my previous 504 by unbolting the diff, which allowed the trailing arms to come down further so the springs could be removed. I ended up with diff oil all over the garage floor. Not recommended.

Pugrambo's instructions in the aforementioned thread are quite sufficient, but I'll put an illustrated version here. It might make it easier for some.

1: We're starting with the LHS rear wheel, so chock the RHS rear wheel.

2: Jack up the LHS till the tyre is off the ground and lower onto an axle stand. Remove the wheel.

3: Remove the two bolts holding the brake caliper on. You need an 8mm allen key and a ring spanner over one end for more leverage.

4: Pull the caliper away from the disc and carefully let it hang out of the way.

5: Next we need to remove the hub from the trailing arm. The hub is held on by four 8mm allen bolts. These are accessed through the hole in the hub:

Use a ring spanner over the allen key again.

6: Remove the half shaft from the diff. Take hold of it with both hands and carefully slide it out through the hole in the trailing arm. Be careful not to damage the boots.

7: Place the jack under trailing arm and jack it up a little to take the weight.

8: Undo the nut on the sway bar end link, underneath the trailing arm. (Alternatively you could undo the bolt at the end of the swaybar.)

9: Undo the bolt at the bottom of the shocker. You'll need a 10mm allen key for this. If you are going to replace the shocks, as I did, unbolt the top of the shock from inside the boot as well. You'll need a very small spanner to hold the tip of the shaft while you undo the nut.

If you aren't going to remove the shock, push it up as far as you can, out of the way.

10: Lower the jack until spring comes free. You may need to push the trailing arm down a little further by hand. Remove the spring.

Refitting is the reverse of removal. If you are fitting GTI springs and want to use rubber spacers in the bottom, make sure that they seat properly when you jack the trailing arm up. Also when you jack up the trailing arm, you'll need to guide the sway bar end link through its hole in the trailing arm.

 

[James S]

LCAs etc

John,

Yes, this is a great blog - so glad that you are reviving it!

You talk about "caster bars" - are these the little vertical ones that the ends of the anti-roll bar (sway bar) is attached to?

I know the bars that go from the LCAs to the body at an angle as radius arms. My question relates to these "radius arms", if that's the correct terminology. These are in your photo on the grass. If I am right, the caster bars aren't in the photo. Can you please confirm this?

If you fitted 505 STI struts and LCAs to a 504, would you also need to fit the STI radius arms to stop the struts from being pushed forwards a bit due to the longer LCAs?

I am about to get a 504 restoration "project" car, as well as an STI manual sedan for parts. I have an SLi sedan also so the choice of suspension bits to choose from is excellent - don't have those 83 504 LCAs though! The STI suspension swap is probably the way to go for me at this point.

Also seriously considering putting the complete STI running gear into the 504 - depends on if an engineering certificate is needed and how much this will cost.

Thanks,
James