Building a 504 GTI 2.2

peujohn

peujohn

pur-john, not pew-john!
1000+ Posts
Fellow Frogger
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Location
Lilydale, Melbourne
If all goes to plan my 504 will be converted to 505 GTI power over Summer. Paris Jansen is supplying the engine and gearbox, and the work will be done in his workshop with my "assistance". I don't know much about the GTI engine but believe this will be a fairly straightforward swap. I actually had a drive of a good leaded series 2 505 GTI a few weeks ago and was very very impressed with the way it went! Can't wait to have 96kW in the 504!

Paris will no doubt know what needs to be done in the conversion but I still want to start a discussion here about it. Any tips or suggestions welcome. I have a few ideas of my own too.

It seems the starter motors on these engines are hard to access, so I plan to put a rebuilt starter on to hopefully avoid having to remove it for a long while! I'm wondering about putting a lightened flywheel on.

The 504 already has a 505 radiator fitted, as well as an electric fan mounted on the back of the radiator. I guess I should be able to retain this setup with the 2.2?

I also need to decide what engine management to use. Megasquirt is the obvious and cheaper choice, but should I take the opportunity to fit something fancier? Paris mentioned Link as an option. If Megasquirt, where can it be purchased?

I wouldn't mind lining up Demannu's 504 with mine when they are both finished!

Please discuss.
 
2.2

Hi John,

Good choice. I have a 505 GTI manual wagon, a 505 STI manual sedan, drove a 505 SLi manual sedan on Friday (have owned one in the past) and have owned 505 SRs and GRs manuals. Of these cars, the GTI has the most go, revs well and seems to be the most fuel efficient in standard form (I do like the XN1 motor also though).

Your radiator - you'll need an STI or GTI one as the top hose is on the right hand side for the ZDJ motor, whereas it is on the left hand side of the XN1 motor. The thermostat housings which the top hose joins to are in different positions for these engines. Funnily enough, I bought a second hand ZDJ type radiator today as the one in my GTI is about to expire ($100 from local mechanic) so my radiator knowledge is fresh. He has another really good one if you get desperate and don't mind paying postage but I can't imagine that you will have trouble finding one down there.

The starter - yep, hard to access along with the distributor as they are buried under the inlet manifold and in the 505, there is hardly any room at the back of the motor to access the bolts that hold the starter in through the bellhousing. If you don't remove the gearbox to change the engine, you will still have the fun task of doing those bolts up in situ - allen key head I think and tricky with the inlet manifold on. Knowing that you have a rebuilt one is a good safeguard I guess. It could save you some pain down the track.

An aside - do you know of any 504s with the 505 SLi motors/heads fitted with improved fuel injection? I will have a spare SLi motor (and GTI motor actually) very shortly and am starting to think about the possibilities for a future project.

James
 
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peujohn said:
If all goes to plan my 504 will be converted to 505 GTI power over Summer. Paris Jansen is supplying the engine and gearbox, and the work will be done in his workshop with my "assistance". I don't know much about the GTI engine but believe this will be a fairly straightforward swap. I actually had a drive of a good leaded series 2 505 GTI a few weeks ago and was very very impressed with the way it went! Can't wait to have 96kW in the 504!

Paris will no doubt know what needs to be done in the conversion but I still want to start a discussion here about it. Any tips or suggestions welcome. I have a few ideas of my own too.

It seems the starter motors on these engines are hard to access, so I plan to put a rebuilt starter on to hopefully avoid having to remove it for a long while! I'm wondering about putting a lightened flywheel on.

The 504 already has a 505 radiator fitted, as well as an electric fan mounted on the back of the radiator. I guess I should be able to retain this setup with the 2.2?

I also need to decide what engine management to use. Megasquirt is the obvious and cheaper choice, but should I take the opportunity to fit something fancier? Paris mentioned Link as an option. If Megasquirt, where can it be purchased?

I wouldn't mind lining up Demannu's 504 with mine when they are both finished!

Please discuss.
Click to expand...

Lightened flywheel is a great idea, these are very heavy in the 2.2.
I have an MS1 already tuned for a GTi motor if you are interested.
Graham
 
GRAHAM WALLIS said:
Lightened flywheel is a great idea, these are very heavy in the 2.2.
I have an MS1 already tuned for a GTi motor if you are interested.
Graham
Click to expand...

I am sure both of the above will worl very well, use may also want to regrind the cam to something a biit more aggressive and open up the exhaust a bit (i.e. remove the middle muffler) if fueling can be programmed.

Judging by the work done on Jay's motor, lining up a standard 2.2 with Demannu's may be a fun exercise but the result will be hardly unexpected.
 
Thanos said:
I am sure both of the above will worl very well, use may also want to regrind the cam to something a biit more aggressive and open up the exhaust a bit (i.e. remove the middle muffler) if fueling can be programmed.

Judging by the work done on Jay's motor, lining up a standard 2.2 with Demannu's may be a fun exercise but the result will be hardly unexpected.
Click to expand...

I removed the front muffler and replaced with a small expansion box (sometimes referred to as a Hot Dog) and from there had made a 2inch system with low restriction muffler at the rear.
This made a big difference to both the GTi and the GR cars it was fitted to.
I have a modified cam that I got from forum member Rally I think Al has grabbed this but you could get in touch with Rally for the specs.
Graham
 
Sounds good John - is the engine being freshened up? Mine was pissing oil for a while. I did the seals on the front of the engine when the cambelt and stuff was changed, then a couple of other seals later on. It has been much better lately. The box also has some serious leaks, so it would be worth replacing all of them while they are accessible.

GRAHAM WALLIS said:
I removed the front muffler and replaced with a small expansion box (sometimes referred to as a Hot Dog) and from there had made a 2inch system with low restriction muffler at the rear.
This made a big difference to both the GTi and the GR cars it was fitted to.
I have a modified cam that I got from forum member Rally I think Al has grabbed this but you could get in touch with Rally for the specs.
Graham
Click to expand...

Finally got in touch with the painter this weekend, so things should start moving.

Keen for the cam and possibly the megasquirt, if you are confident you can get it working well. I drive the 505 to work across the city quite often so it needs to be reliable and somewhat sensible. It is back on sensible duties after the golf broke down again on saturday...
 
al said:
Sounds good John - is the engine being freshened up? Mine was pissing oil for a while. I did the seals on the front of the engine when the cambelt and stuff was changed, then a couple of other seals later on. It has been much better lately. The box also has some serious leaks, so it would be worth replacing all of them while they are accessible.



Finally got in touch with the painter this weekend, so things should start moving.

Keen for the cam and possibly the megasquirt, if you are confident you can get it working well. I drive the 505 to work across the city quite often so it needs to be reliable and somewhat sensible. It is back on sensible duties after the golf broke down again on saturday...
Click to expand...

Sorry John, someone jumped on the Megasquirt and it is now sold.
I can do you another new one, Kit is $150 landed and I would charge $250 to assemble and test it plus $50 for the tuning map. So $450.
Plus you will need a throttle position sensor and air temp sensor, get these from Petroject.
Probably a good idea to buy a loom for $100 at the same time, very high quality wire and everything is labelled.

My car put out 80kw at the wheels according to the dyno on which I had it tuned.
A modified (EFI) 504 2 litre put out 70kw at the same time so must have been fairly realistic.


Graham
 
GRAHAM WALLIS said:
Sorry John, someone jumped on the Megasquirt and it is now sold.
I can do you another new one, Kit is $150 landed and I would charge $250 to assemble and test it plus $50 for the tuning map. So $450.
Plus you will need a throttle position sensor and air temp sensor, get these from Petroject.
Probably a good idea to buy a loom for $100 at the same time, very high quality wire and everything is labelled.

My car put out 80kw at the wheels according to the dyno on which I had it tuned.
A modified (EFI) 504 2 litre put out 70kw at the same time so must have been fairly realistic.


Graham
Click to expand...

I'm not John, but that is good to know. I've got a lot to get done before i need to worry about the ECU

Glad to see you got through the weekend ok. I was wondering what the driver must be like after his co-driver refused to get in the car.
 
GRAHAM WALLIS said:
Sorry John, someone jumped on the Megasquirt and it is now sold.
I can do you another new one, Kit is $150 landed and I would charge $250 to assemble and test it plus $50 for the tuning map. So $450.
Plus you will need a throttle position sensor and air temp sensor, get these from Petroject.
Probably a good idea to buy a loom for $100 at the same time, very high quality wire and everything is labelled.

My car put out 80kw at the wheels according to the dyno on which I had it tuned.
A modified (EFI) 504 2 litre put out 70kw at the same time so must have been fairly realistic.


Graham
Click to expand...

I might have to take you up on that offer one day. A lot of other things need work on the 505 first though. :blackeye:

Thanks

Hayden
 
sideways_505 said:
I might have to take you up on that offer one day. A lot of other things need work on the 505 first though. :blackeye:

Thanks

Hayden
Click to expand...

OK, but now is a great time to buy the kit with the dollar being so high against the US$
Graham
 
John I see that EAI have quite a few 505 items in their special section, incl new starter motors for $229 + gst
 
Blast! I would definitely have grabbed the Megasquirt setup. I'll definitely take the cam if it isn't spoken for.
 
peujohn said:
Blast! I would definitely have grabbed the Megasquirt setup. I'll definitely take the cam if it isn't spoken for.
Click to expand...

You still can for not that much more, see my posting.
I only sold the ECu with the GTi map, you still would have had to buy the other bits and pieces.
The cam is available if Al doesn't want it.
Graham
 
peujohn said:
Yep, I saw that. Would the new one be Megasquirt II at that price?
Click to expand...

No, MS2 kit with version 3 board is around $200 I think, Probably add a further $50 for assembly, a bit more work involved as there are twice as many components.
No real advantage on a road engine unless you want ignition as well which will require locking up the dissy or fitting a flywheel sensor and an EDIS system.
You could get a version 2.2 board and fit a MS2 CPU daughter board, this will give you the MS2 resolution but you would need to do further minor mods to drive an ignition module.

Have a look at the MS website, Glen's Garage is the supplier I use, and has a listing of prices and get back to me for explanations of what is what.
RS Motorsport supplies the looms.

Graham
 
peujohn said:
Here's an MSII setup on Ebay, preassembled. $400 plus shipping. This is what I'm looking for, yes?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MEGASQUIRT-II-2-PCB3-Standalone-Engine-Management-ECU-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem35addbf6b5QQitemZ230550140597QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Click to expand...

That's cheaper than I can do, go for it.
It takes me a couple of days to assemble one of these, either they have people that can do two a day or people that work for low wages, maybe both.
Graham
 
GRAHAM WALLIS said:
You still can for not that much more, see my posting.
I only sold the ECu with the GTi map, you still would have had to buy the other bits and pieces.
The cam is available if Al doesn't want it.
Graham
Click to expand...

I was keen to drop it in when we pull the engine out and rebuild it. If you want to move it now we can get another ground though.

Is it worth replicating now so a few of us could try it out? Or alternatively you could sell it to John who can be a guinea pig!
 
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