Peugeot 504 (411) radiator empty of fluid (!!!)

E

EdK

New member
Tadpole
Tadpole
Joined
May 2, 2022
Messages
16
Location
Adelaide, Sth Australia
History:
  1. my wife's deceased father's white 504 inherited by her in ?2002
  2. several thousands of dollars spent by us on 3/4/2004 completely cleaning back then repainting (several coats) to original colour by reputable Adelaide motor body restorer to our satisfaction
  3. "resurrected" from moderately neglected state (mainly battery-related and that due to infrequent use over previous decade or so) - this resurrection done circa 2017 or 2018 by my wife's brother who once owned a Peugeot 4 series (?403). It included a newish radiator that (apparently, according to my bro-in-law) should not be leaking.
  4. I drove it around occasionally (once per month) for about a year - my historic registration drivers log book says between 27/7/2019 (first trip) to 23/11/2019 (latest, ie "last" trip)
  5. After that, I would start up the motor and run it in the driveway for about ten minutes every time but this in due course failed - battery "died". So Pug was left for further two years (under a car cover).
  6. sick of it being in the driveway but didn't want to ditch it, so made yet another attempt to get it going in about 2020
  7. I discovered that the radiator was empty but could not pinpoint when this actually happened ie I had not checked radiator level on Pug's "recommissioning" at dot point 2 above (actually I had never checked the radiator prior to 2020, what does that tell you?)
  8. I got my brother in law involved again, on a "one-off" b asis
  9. incident possiblities he identified were:
    1. he forgot to fill the radiator some 3 or 4 years ago when he an his mate "got it going" and it was then driven from his place to mine (only about 5 miles) - he didn't think that was likely as my driving Pug around (as per 2) should have caused overheating etc problems
    2. it (the emptying of the radiator) happened during the ?eight short trips I made subsequent to then
    3. it (the emptying of the radiator) happened gradually while Pug was just sitting in my driveway due to a slow leak
  10. diagnoses included/excluded by my bro-in-law are(please excuse my layman's terms):
    1. leakage of water while stationery - not sure, but several inspections of the ground surface underneath the radiator suggested this not happening
    2. leakage of water into the oil sump due to failure of ?gaskets at base of ?pistons - we checked the dipstick oil for signs of water - no sign of water at all, the oil was pure (on reflection, I wonder if this was a definitive check)
    3. (very recently) my bro-in-law contacted me to say he had thought of a further possibility and that he now thinks this is the more likely - that somehow the system for heating the car (which apparently relies on hot water/fluid distributed from the radiator) could be leaking out and (un-noticed by me or anyone else) be settling under the passenger side mat(s)/floor covering. I checked this and it was inconclusive - it was wet but it didn't look "pristine" ie it was difficult to tell one way or the other
  11. I did notice a forum post (sorry, I lost the reference) & replies of 2015 vintage about how to fix the heating system which was therefore vaguely relevant in that it convinced me that at 77 years of age I would not be attempting to further investigate or fix the problem
  12. Would anyone like to comment re
    1. likely cause of the problem
    2. (if it is in fact to do with the car heating system) what is the actual likely problem, and
    3. (if it is in fact to do with the car heating system) how easy would it be to fix (self or motor mechanics)?
    4. would it help to obtain an owner's manual or a service manual for this model Peugeot (the ID plate of which says Model 504__ 411), which I don't mind paying for?
    5. (ho ho) what's the market like at the moment for (take your pick) - A) an excellent opportunity, or B) a money pit?
EdK 2/5/22
 
EdK said:
History:
  1. my wife's deceased father's white 504 inherited by her in ?2002
  2. several thousands of dollars spent by us on 3/4/2004 completely cleaning back then repainting (several coats) to original colour by reputable Adelaide motor body restorer to our satisfaction
  3. "resurrected" from moderately neglected state (mainly battery-related and that due to infrequent use over previous decade or so) - this resurrection done circa 2017 or 2018 by my wife's brother who once owned a Peugeot 4 series (?403). It included a newish radiator that (apparently, according to my bro-in-law) should not be leaking.
  4. I drove it around occasionally (once per month) for about a year - my historic registration drivers log book says between 27/7/2019 (first trip) to 23/11/2019 (latest, ie "last" trip)
  5. After that, I would start up the motor and run it in the driveway for about ten minutes every time but this in due course failed - battery "died". So Pug was left for further two years (under a car cover).
  6. sick of it being in the driveway but didn't want to ditch it, so made yet another attempt to get it going in about 2020
  7. I discovered that the radiator was empty but could not pinpoint when this actually happened ie I had not checked radiator level on Pug's "recommissioning" at dot point 2 above (actually I had never checked the radiator prior to 2020, what does that tell you?)
  8. I got my brother in law involved again, on a "one-off" b asis
  9. incident possiblities he identified were:
    1. he forgot to fill the radiator some 3 or 4 years ago when he an his mate "got it going" and it was then driven from his place to mine (only about 5 miles) - he didn't think that was likely as my driving Pug around (as per 2) should have caused overheating etc problems
    2. it (the emptying of the radiator) happened during the ?eight short trips I made subsequent to then
    3. it (the emptying of the radiator) happened gradually while Pug was just sitting in my driveway due to a slow leak
  10. diagnoses included/excluded by my bro-in-law are(please excuse my layman's terms):
    1. leakage of water while stationery - not sure, but several inspections of the ground surface underneath the radiator suggested this not happening
    2. leakage of water into the oil sump due to failure of ?gaskets at base of ?pistons - we checked the dipstick oil for signs of water - no sign of water at all, the oil was pure (on reflection, I wonder if this was a definitive check)
    3. (very recently) my bro-in-law contacted me to say he had thought of a further possibility and that he now thinks this is the more likely - that somehow the system for heating the car (which apparently relies on hot water/fluid distributed from the radiator) could be leaking out and (un-noticed by me or anyone else) be settling under the passenger side mat(s)/floor covering. I checked this and it was inconclusive - it was wet but it didn't look "pristine" ie it was difficult to tell one way or the other
  11. I did notice a forum post (sorry, I lost the reference) & replies of 2015 vintage about how to fix the heating system which was therefore vaguely relevant in that it convinced me that at 77 years of age I would not be attempting to further investigate or fix the problem
  12. Would anyone like to comment re
    1. likely cause of the problem
    2. (if it is in fact to do with the car heating system) what is the actual likely problem, and
    3. (if it is in fact to do with the car heating system) how easy would it be to fix (self or motor mechanics)?
    4. would it help to obtain an owner's manual or a service manual for this model Peugeot (the ID plate of which says Model 504__ 411), which I don't mind paying for?
    5. (ho ho) what's the market like at the moment for (take your pick) - A) an excellent opportunity, or B) a money pit?
EdK 2/5/22
Click to expand...

EdK said:
I discovered that the radiator was empty
Click to expand...


Further to my post #1 - forgot to show this important bit of information -- After discovering the radiator was empty, I filled it up with rainwater. The level has not dropped in the ?2 years since then. EdK 2/5/22 12.55 pm
 
Hi EdK welcome :)
Well you have given a clear detailed story to us, unlike some who give two lines. It does sound like, possibly the water was not put in initially. But you should put some corrosion protection fluid in there with the water you put in and run the engine to mix it. No engine should have only pure water these days. Supercheap, Repco and similar places sell good stuff.

But if it has sat for two years and the level is OK then it seems like it is not leaking out on the ground, into the motor or inside, which is good news and some corrosion inhibitor added to the water will keep it good.

As far as the value or likely worth to people that will depend on a person who likes 504s and whether they want a good car with hopefully minimal work or not. Any interested person might send you a conversation message so be ready for that, as well as answers here. The conversation will show up at the top right hand side next to your name, and you just click on it to see it.

I had a mate that had a 504 and we did some rapid trips around the place in utter comfort going to Kart races while driving quite quickly. Good memories. :cool:
Good luck Jaahn
 
Last edited:
EdK said:
Further to my post #1 - forgot to show this important bit of information -- After discovering the radiator was empty, I filled it up with rainwater. The level has not dropped in the ?2 years since then. EdK 2/5/22 12.55 pm
Click to expand...
Has the car been used regularly since then ? Reading your post, it sounds like it has not.
Getting it up to operating temperature a few times will pressurize the cooling system and you should check the radiator level after that.
It may not leak water without that pressurization.
And from the information, it sounds like the water may have gone into the carpet underfelt. I seem to remember that the heater connection is slightly on the left of centre, and you said that the passenger side mat was wet.

Of course, water may have l;eaked in another way, as 504s had various leaks.
If unregistered, start car and let it idle until it gets hot before turning off. Do this on a few days and THEN check the radiator water (after it's cooled down, of course) :D.
 
Was it compleatly empty or just not showing any water when taking the cap off? You would know by taking off the bottom hose and if a lot comes out it was not empty. If it was leaking from the heater to the interior it would not run the rad dry [if it did there would be a huge amount of water in the carpets]
 
hi EdK,a couple of areas where coolant can leak besides those mentioned above would be external Welch plugs in cylinder head,at rear of head near firewall(large flattish if early model and smaller cup shaped on late).also smaller Welch plugs between exhaust manifold branches.I would also have a good look at heater tap area for weeping.how is the body for rust?that may be a decider as whether to keep or not,they do have a tendency to rust around the A pillars,I would check also up under the dash above l/h parcel tray for rust of plenum chamber,these points can allow water onto and under front carpets…jim
 
EdK said:
History:
  1. my wife's deceased father's white 504 inherited by her in ?2002
  2. several thousands of dollars spent by us on 3/4/2004 completely cleaning back then repainting (several coats) to original colour by reputable Adelaide motor body restorer to our satisfaction
  3. "resurrected" from moderately neglected state (mainly battery-related and that due to infrequent use over previous decade or so) - this resurrection done circa 2017 or 2018 by my wife's brother who once owned a Peugeot 4 series (?403). It included a newish radiator that (apparently, according to my bro-in-law) should not be leaking.
  4. I drove it around occasionally (once per month) for about a year - my historic registration drivers log book says between 27/7/2019 (first trip) to 23/11/2019 (latest, ie "last" trip)
  5. After that, I would start up the motor and run it in the driveway for about ten minutes every time but this in due course failed - battery "died". So Pug was left for further two years (under a car cover).
  6. sick of it being in the driveway but didn't want to ditch it, so made yet another attempt to get it going in about 2020
  7. I discovered that the radiator was empty but could not pinpoint when this actually happened ie I had not checked radiator level on Pug's "recommissioning" at dot point 2 above (actually I had never checked the radiator prior to 2020, what does that tell you?)
  8. I got my brother in law involved again, on a "one-off" b asis
  9. incident possiblities he identified were:
    1. he forgot to fill the radiator some 3 or 4 years ago when he an his mate "got it going" and it was then driven from his place to mine (only about 5 miles) - he didn't think that was likely as my driving Pug around (as per 2) should have caused overheating etc problems
    2. it (the emptying of the radiator) happened during the ?eight short trips I made subsequent to then
    3. it (the emptying of the radiator) happened gradually while Pug was just sitting in my driveway due to a slow leak
  10. diagnoses included/excluded by my bro-in-law are(please excuse my layman's terms):
    1. leakage of water while stationery - not sure, but several inspections of the ground surface underneath the radiator suggested this not happening
    2. leakage of water into the oil sump due to failure of ?gaskets at base of ?pistons - we checked the dipstick oil for signs of water - no sign of water at all, the oil was pure (on reflection, I wonder if this was a definitive check)
    3. (very recently) my bro-in-law contacted me to say he had thought of a further possibility and that he now thinks this is the more likely - that somehow the system for heating the car (which apparently relies on hot water/fluid distributed from the radiator) could be leaking out and (un-noticed by me or anyone else) be settling under the passenger side mat(s)/floor covering. I checked this and it was inconclusive - it was wet but it didn't look "pristine" ie it was difficult to tell one way or the other
  11. I did notice a forum post (sorry, I lost the reference) & replies of 2015 vintage about how to fix the heating system which was therefore vaguely relevant in that it convinced me that at 77 years of age I would not be attempting to further investigate or fix the problem
  12. Would anyone like to comment re
    1. likely cause of the problem
    2. (if it is in fact to do with the car heating system) what is the actual likely problem, and
    3. (if it is in fact to do with the car heating system) how easy would it be to fix (self or motor mechanics)?
    4. would it help to obtain an owner's manual or a service manual for this model Peugeot (the ID plate of which says Model 504__ 411), which I don't mind paying for?
    5. (ho ho) what's the market like at the moment for (take your pick) - A) an excellent opportunity, or B) a money pit?
EdK 2/5/22
Click to expand...
Hi.

According to your point 4, that the vehcile has been driven once a month for a year, if there was no coolant, then I would have expected the engine to have overheated and be damaged.

In point 5 you said that you would start the engine in the driveway, so I assume that the engine was not damaged. By logic I would further assume that the vehicle did have coolant in the cooling system.

As other have said ther are several ways that water could have leaked from the cooling system. Water leaking on the ground/floor may have evaporated prior to you noticing it??

If it was me, I would fill the cooling system, and check the level every few days. Even better if you were able to start the engine and get it up to operating tempreture and the cooling system pressurised.

Cheers.
 
Fill system with coolant (not just water - Nulon premix from supercheap is fine) and run engine until thermostat opens (you will feel the top radiator hose get hot).

If there is no visual sign of coolant leaking from hoses, welsh plugs around the cylinder head, radiator or from the heater matrix/tap under the centre of the dash....have a look inside the oil transfer tube (passenger side of the engine). Undo the two spring clips and withdraw the black filter. If there is any sign of mayonnaise in there, coolant is mixing with the oil via the piston liner seals.

Check the radiator cap. Must be rated at no more then 4 pounds.
 
Thanks to all those who have replied so far. I really appreciate the advice given. I feel the need to take a deep breath and try to take in all the info and possibilities. What is my next step? Well, as an update - on 2/5/2022 (three days ago) I bought (via the RAA of SA road service) a new battery. They used some powerful "incentive liquid" squirted into the carburettor, Pug started up on second attempt (with choke half out) and after about 20 seconds of getting used to the idea of actually running, settled into a steady beautiful beat, no problems at all, so after a few minutes I eased the choke in, and left Pug to warm up. I would have ran it for longer except that I know the fuel tank was very low, so the RAA guy said "I think that's good enough, take it for a run in the next few days" and he left. Well, I couldn't take it for a run until I had cleaned the windscreen and the two front side windows inside and out. That was yesterday 4/2/22. I also pumped up the four tyres and poured in the last little bit of fuel I had in a container. So I now feel brave enough to at least go get some petrol and drive Pug around the neighbourhood for ten minutes, go buy that radiator coolant, bring Pug home and then later (when engine/radiator is cool, check the radiator level and maybe put in some coolant. On that point - the colour coolant that was in the radiator before (judging by the colour of the dregs in the "overflow" bottle) was sort of orangey. I bought (a year or two ago) some coolant that is green - I had heard from somebody that that should not be used because it is the/a different colour. Can anyone tell me what colour I should buy and use, please? Is green no good in my case? What should I buy? And can whatever I buy be mixed in with the water already in the radiator? Please excuse my total ignorance in this matter. But/and the original owner of Pug (my father in law) didn't even know the location of the dipstick (!!!!) when I asked him about that. so I said "how come you don't know where the dipstick is on your car?" - he said "because it was always serviced by [Bianchi Motors on Magill Road] and Pug never ever used oil between its services ...." (which I believe were religiously kept to by my father-in-law).

Oh - of course, Pug is registered (under the historic cars registration rules) and insured. Probably, I should buy new tyres all round as the car has been stationary for extended periods, and last time I drove it I did notice that there was a bit of a "dmp dmp dmp dmp" rhythm (not bad, but slightly noticeable) - someone told me that that might disappear after a longer drive or three. There is still heaps of tread on each tyre.

Wish me luck EdK 5/5/22
 
Can you take a picture of the overflow bottle with the orange liquid? I suspect this colour might be from rust in the water galleries in the block staining the water. I am unaware of any coolant on the market that is orange. I know of red and green. happy to be guided by others on here if they know of a coolant that is orange.

Can you now check the oil level via the dipstick and advise on the colour/consistancy?

Great news that the car has started and you can drive it.

Cheers
 
How old are the tyres? As you may know already, the date of manufacture should be on the side wall. From your initial comments, it sounds as thought they are older than 2002. If so, then they will probably be hard and will not grip very well. I have tyres that have lots of tread left (almost as new) but are too old to use safely.

I'm with Pug72. As far as I know there are red coolants and green coolants, and they are not compatible. I changed over from red to green in a Corolla I used to own by draining, filling with plain water, running the engine until hot, then draining and repeating the procedure about 5 times before filling with green. Worked out fine.

A picture of the coolant would help identify what it is likely to be.
 
EdK said:
... drive Pug around the neighbourhood for ten minutes, go buy that radiator coolant, bring Pug home and then later (when engine/radiator is cool, check the radiator level and maybe put in some coolant.
Click to expand...
Hi. Seeing as you have not explicitly mentioned that the coolant level has been checked, I am making this comment. But I assume that the RAA technician may have done this. Just make sure that prior to driving the vehicle, you at least remove the radiator cap and check that you can see fluid in there. If not, top up with #water. Also put some water in your overflow bottle to a mark, but if no mark, make sure you have at least 1/3rd or 1/2 full. Don't forget to put the radiator cap back on.

#water is OK for the time being, as it seems you will be draining and the replacing the current stuff with new green collant.

EdK said:
On that point - the colour coolant that was in the radiator before (judging by the colour of the dregs in the "overflow" bottle) was sort of orangey. I bought (a year or two ago) some coolant that is green - I had heard from somebody that that should not be used because it is the/a different colour. Can anyone tell me what colour I should buy and use, please? Is green no good in my case?
Click to expand...
I concur with other responders here, green coolant will be OK for your vehicle. But another few weeks without it won't change the current state of your engines cooling system.

EdK said:
Probably, I should buy new tyres all round as the car has been stationary for extended periods, and last time I drove it I did notice that there was a bit of a "dmp dmp dmp dmp" rhythm (not bad, but slightly noticeable) - someone told me that that might disappear after a longer drive or three. There is still heaps of tread on each tyre.
Click to expand...
I agree with others here about tyre age and hardness of the rubber. But let’s not get ahead of yourself, you are still determining the current condition of the vehicle and I assume making some assessment of the expenditure needed to get the vehicle into your desired state, and breaking this down into realistic stages of funding and time. Yes the tyres will return to round after they heat up from driving a few dozen km’s. To a degree the hard "skin" of the tread will wear off to a small extent.

I would be more concerned about the brakes and if they are working on each wheel. So I would be checking the master cylinder at least has brake fluid in it. Then if you have room, do some low speed brake applications in your driveway, prior to going out on the public road.

EdK said:
Wish me luck EdK 5/5/22
Click to expand...
As president Macron said, he doesn’t think, he knows. Preparation and checking has a much better outcome than relying on luck.

Cheers.
 
I second that about the brakes. What year is the car, EDK ? If it is 1973 or older it will have a single circuit brake master cylinder, and I would never drive one of those without replacing the master first. When they fail, they fail totally and suddenly. But somewhere in 1973 or '74 they changed over to twin circuit. This at least has the safety of having either the front or back working if one fails.
 
I think they changed in '75. My '74 has single.
 
Whippet said:
Hi. Seeing as you have not explicitly mentioned that the coolant level has been checked, I am making this comment. But I assume that the RAA technician may have done this. Just make sure that prior to driving the vehicle, you at least remove the radiator cap and check that you can see fluid in there. If not, top up with #water. Also put some water in your overflow bottle to a mark, but if no mark, make sure you have at least 1/3rd or 1/2 full. Don't forget to put the radiator cap back on.

#water is OK for the time being, as it seems you will be draining and the replacing the current stuff with new green collant.


I concur with other responders here, green coolant will be OK for your vehicle. But another few weeks without it won't change the current state of your engines cooling system.


I agree with others here about tyre age and hardness of the rubber. But let’s not get ahead of yourself, you are still determining the current condition of the vehicle and I assume making some assessment of the expenditure needed to get the vehicle into your desired state, and breaking this down into realistic stages of funding and time. Yes the tyres will return to round after they heat up from driving a few dozen km’s. To a degree the hard "skin" of the tread will wear off to a small extent.

I would be more concerned about the brakes and if they are working on each wheel. So I would be checking the master cylinder at least has brake fluid in it. Then if you have room, do some low speed brake applications in your driveway, prior to going out on the public road.


As president Macron said, he doesn’t think, he knows. Preparation and checking has a much better outcome than relying on luck.

Cheers.
Click to expand...
Thanks again for your comments & advice. Also "ho ho" to Whippet and "hang in there" to the President + watch out for "le Pen is ?mightier than the ?sword ...." I've been checking the rear lights, especially I noted how "un-noticeable" the right blinker light is - so much so that I doubt anyone behind Pug would even see that I was intending to turn right (which worries me). Does anyone know how to make that globe brighter without wrecking the electrics?? (which I did to my VW in about 1990, by carefully cutting an iron nail to the same length as the fuses that had kept blowing out, and which I had got sick of; anyway, then I took out the blown fuse and put the nail in the fuse box underneath the dashboard (sort of near my right knee). to my amazement, smoke started coming out from the bonnet which as luck would have it was open, as part of my "trouble-shooting" (ironic term) !! Closer inspection revealed that along with the smoke the plastic around some (not all) of the wiring was melting. With great presence of mind I quickly realised (duh- oh ...!!!) that this might have something to do with "iron fuse" I had just put in place. What to do? What to do??? Of course!! take the fuse out, too simple for Ed's problem-solving skills. Some scrabbling ensued. About ten seconds later the offending nail fuse was in my grasp. about two seconds after that, the pain set in, and yes the nail was still red hot when I had separated it from my fingers and thrown it on the ground. The burn was quite deep but narrow. This incident, when related to my work colleagues obviously made quite an impression on them. Some years later, when I left that employer they presented me with a cute little "trophy" and momento (pic attached - I've deleted my surname, and in case you're wondering, I go by both/either of my first name Ed or my second name Adrian). This VW was called "Floyd", had fat tyres, a stubby gear lever and a tiny steering wheel, I used to drive it to & from work every day. As it turned out, the wires were all still joined to wherever they had to be joined, and (when I got up enough courage to attempt a start, a week or so later, and with a new fuse to my surprise it started - but as soon as I could arrange it, I had it looked at with a routine service and they fixed whatever the problem was that had been causing the fuses to "die" plus some work to rectify my "fix".

As far as I know, Pug has zero electrical problems at the moment, and I want it to stay that way EdK

PS
1. the coolant colour was red (I checked).
2. I noticed that amber colored globes are available that would fit where the blinker globe is - would an amber coloured globe be more visible or could I/should I use a higher ie brighter globe of same wattage (21 W)? Gee, Pug was a lot simpler just sitting in the shed, by the way ....
3. The rego papers say Pug is a 1976 504 GL Sedan and the ID plate by the motor says it was made by Renault. It does not seem to have a VIN at all as far as I can see. Would that be important to know if I go to sell it? EdK
 

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Is the blinker issue due to the globe having low current/earth etc and not giving full brightness Or is it that the plastic lens has faded and is no longer orange?

If the latter they can on many cars be effectively tarted up by rubbing back the faded layers with progressively finer grades of sandpaper, then coating with clear epoxy.

REpco have kits for it and if you are lucky they can save you a lot of searching for obsolete lenses.

I have significantly prolonged the useful life on indicators on Pugsley ( 404 ) by doing this. Did it eight years ago and they are still going strong.

Best Wishes

Andrew
 
And if you haven't pulled the lens off yet (are 504 tail light lenses held on by screws accessible from the outside like a trailer tail light?) you may find that the bulb and reflector are covered by a thick layer of dust.
 
You said " I noticed that amber colored globes are available that would fit where the blinker globe is - would an amber coloured globe be more visible "
Hi Ed , the orange globes do not fit where clear globes are used as the pins are offset to make sure the correct globe is used.
My suggestion is also to look inside the light glass for dirt and to polish up the contacts for the globe. It would have worked properly when newer.
Progress is being made for the second coming ! :cool:
Jaahn
 
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