Newbie DS23 Pallas EFI(ish)

Guido

New member
Only because the original or near new owners paid for the abysmal build quality to be rectified. These things did not get the reputations they have for no reason. They were deeply flawed in both build quality and the extreme evolution of a design that placed more heat and mechanical stresses onto components that were not designed for the loadings. As an old bloke, I KNOW my rantings are valid.
We are standing on the shoulders of our grandparents. Current owners are living with the hard work, frustrations and expenditure that those "old blokes" invested all those years ago. Doubtless a survivor should be treasured, but not without recognition of the blood, sweat, tears, invention, upgrades, modifications and disappointment ( and dollars ) that allow a survivor to now BE a survivor. It has NOTHING to do with your childish statements about Holden Belmonts. It has to do with a design icon that was degraded by added on or bought in componentry. These automatic things failed IN PERIOD, some not even making it through the then 12 month warranty period. Have you not heard of porous castings and mixing transmission and final drive fluids ? shattered camshaft pulleys and cooked engine mounts ? fractured and brittle insulation on wiring harnesses, battery cases with insufficient wiring on the relays to allow easy removal/replacement of a simple battery, cracking subframes on front suspension mounting points ...
If we are becoming pedantic, the B/W automatic was NOT French in origin, and the Bosch Jetronic fuel injection is German sourced.
DSs were NOT all created equal.
Bon jour. Like I say, happy to learn from others varied experiences :)
 
Guido, You will find this site a wonderful source of information and experience. Citroen people of a certain age are described as "rusted on" but are supremely willing to help out. You are fortunate in living so close to Maleny where the truly wonderful Ian Steele runs Just Cits.
Ian is a treasure house of knowledge, and skill, all learnt from years (decades ) of getting down and dirty with these unique vehicles.
I suggest you consider joining the Citroen car Club of Queensland. many "rusted on" types, computer realm superstars as well as a bunch of "ashtray polishers" like myself.

https://citroenclubqld.org/
 

Guido

New member
Guido, You will find this site a wonderful source of information and experience. Citroen people of a certain age are described as "rusted on" but are supremely willing to help out. You are fortunate in living so close to Maleny where the truly wonderful Ian Steele runs Just Cits.
Ian is a treasure house of knowledge, and skill, all learnt from years (decades ) of getting down and dirty with these unique vehicles.
I suggest you consider joining the Citroen car Club of Queensland. many "rusted on" types, computer realm superstars as well as a bunch of "ashtray polishers" like myself.

https://citroenclubqld.org/
Thanks, membership enquiry submitted. I’ll have to think about what category I fit in. I’d like to think “Patinated but functional”.
 
Congratulations on your purchase. We had a DS23 efi auto for 20 years (230k km). During that time we had a pretty good run. Had a burst auto transmission cooler hose because a "mechanic" had used a low temp replacement. Also a burnt exhaust valve and the cam pulley was welded because its rivets didn't handle the pull of the AC piston pump. Other than that regular maintenance kept it running. Flat suspension spheres will put added stress on the chassis so keep 'em gassed. Never a problem with the EFI or auto box. Squared out a 14mm nut which was perfect for adjusting auto box brake bands
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Guido

New member
Congratulations on your purchase. We had a DS23 efi auto for 20 years (230k km). During that time we had a pretty good run. Had a burst auto transmission cooler hose because a "mechanic" had used a low temp replacement. Also a burnt exhaust valve and the cam pulley was welded because its rivets didn't handle the pull of the AC piston pump. Other than that regular maintenance kept it running. Flat suspension spheres will put added stress on the chassis so keep 'em gassed. Never a problem with the EFI or auto box. Squared out a 14mm nut which was perfect for adjusting auto box brake bandsView attachment 136716
Thanks, I’m pleased to report that I’ve read the BW35 manual (don’t I lead an exciting life?) so I have some idea what you are talking about and photo :)
Dropping auto pan will be one of the early jobs :)
 

Guido

New member
Am I correct in assuming that the front seats/door cards have been re-trimmed in something very non-standard and the rears are shabby originals? Is there a “go to” place for “original” replacements? I watched covers being fitted to seats on Wheeler Dealers…C4DF913A-7FAB-4DE4-B684-5AB919DFB016.png4C9F58CF-B603-4E5A-B368-E2C3AA835426.png
 

bleudanube

Member
Agree, the rear covers and door cards look like Vieil D’Or, Old Gold. The front looks homemade for sure.

I got all my vinyl and covers (also Vieil D’Or), foams, carpets and door cards from Citrotoon in Holland. Quality seems ok but haven’t put them to a proper test yet as the resto is still going.

But there are many others that supply the same stuff ex Europe: citrotech, Der Franzose, Citroen Classics in the Uk, etc , etc. They most likely all draw on the same suppliers.

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Guido

New member
Thanks. I come from Porsche world (now in remission thank goodness) where originality is everything re value. Does that hold in DS world as well? Eg if it came with Old Gold fabric, it shd get Old Gold fabric replacements? I’d actually personally prefer one of the more wild colours, like the vibrant green - but not if it means dropping substantive coin to lower the value of the car. Not that value is the overriding purpose, just a consideration. Kind of hoping it wasn’t originally red either and from pics (edges of panels) looks a bit like it may have once been white-ish…but if it was red from birth then it will have to grow on me.
 

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Buttercup

Member
White-ish was pretty common.
There is a small round aluminium disc on the firewall with the original paint code so it's easy to find out.
Originality (to that chassis number) will attract some $...... but it's not a lot.

I think that for most of us, we'd rather have something that matches the expression that these cars carry. Its somewhere between "gosh that's weird" "look at me" and "understated elegance".

So of course, very few of us agree with each other's preferences.

Generally I think most agree that bright is good, and dark body goes with light roof. Light body goes with dark roof.

Some of us quite like the red.
 

Guido

New member
Variety is the spice of life. Is it the round thing covered in crap that I have circled in this (low res) photo?
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faulksy

Member
yep that’s the one. The paint code will start with the letters AC and then 3 numbers.

Interiors are easy to sort as all the covers and carpets are available new. Citronpieces and Citrotoon make the covers that are sold through all the usual suspects.

When you take delivery, go through all the wiring and check for dirty connectors, cracked insulation and frayed wiring.

It’s also worth replacing all the rubber fuel hoses.

Seeing as the car has sat for some time be prepared for random things to start failing and leaking. These cars don’t like sitting around as the rubber parts harden and crack.
 

Guido

New member
Thanks. I’ve spoken to Ian and it will be delivered directly to him so I can pay him to give me bad news 🤣
 

Guido

New member
And I assume this is the Citroen ID plate with chassis number (behind the definitely-not-Bosch-EFI carby)? I have a pic of the ADR plate.
 

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Budge

Member
On a later DS, the chassis ID plate is up by the wiper motor - as per this photo. There should be a matching number stamped into the lip of the engine bay close by. It's hidden under the rubber edging.

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bleudanube

Member
The originality question is always a fun / contentious one… across all car brands and models.

having restored a few cars and bikes over the years I always found it depends on what the original colours were: my 70 DSuper was Danube Blue with black vinyl seats… changed it to Bleu Platine with blue seats. Sold well.

My current 64 Safari was originally Brun Isard with Similiod beige vinyl…. In my eyes the worst combo available (but as Bob said: some may like / prefer it), so I went for a more sophisticated combo of Bleu D’Orient with Vieil D’or covers…. It will look stunning, period correct-ish (a couple of years off) and I am sure, if I were to sell it would get more money than a Brun Isard car…

Originalty is always preferred, but only if you actually like it! After all, it’s all about driving the things and having fun while owning them!

Sven
 

Guido

New member
Originally “Plover Beige” aka “Beige Vanneau”. I love it. Big fan of plovers.
 

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Guido

New member
Does anyone have a DS in Beige Vanneau (or similar beige colour) with Vert Jura (or similar green) interior?
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There were quite a few DSpecials sold here in that beige and red cloth. I think I recall a DSpecial with green cloth, but remember the DSpecial trim is less elaborate than Pallas trim. Many DSpecials also came with a white roof. It's now your car, so paint and trim it to suit your tastes. Personally, I've always felt the metallic shades suit the Pallas best and leave the pastels for the ID/Special. I'm guilty of changing a Beige Tholonet / Caramel cloth Pallas to the C5 colour Bourrasque and Tabac leather. The paint is an anachronism, but then some of the original metallics just look rather flat and tired, even when quite fresh. It's personal preference, but something like an early ID19 painted in a DS23 metallic would look as wrong as a DS23 painted in Holden's Tiga Mica, unless you want some custom show car. In contrast an ID19 painted in a non-Citroen pastel would look OK, but there were many pretty pastels to choose from the ID/DS range anyway. It's just a matter of being a little sympathetic to the car and shape in making a choice so as not to compromise the resale value, if that's a significant consideration.

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The car above looks superb.
Bear in mind the heat and sun in Queensland. The rear glass alone can allow considerable heat radiation into the car. It is amazing the difference afforded by a piece of light coloured carpet slung under the glass instead of the black plastic coated patterned felt stuff on the parcel shelf.
Injection DSs were always hot because of the trapped under bonnet heat and the under dash hung on air conditioners were OK but fail to serve the foot wells, where the exhaust manifold adds to the general heat sink. The air intakes ( originally foam lined cardboard tubes ) are fed from the front bumper and therefore pick up air already heated by the road surface...as is the radiator duct. The cardboard tubes by now will be crushed and probably pretty ratty. They were never well sealed to the fan/heater housings. There have been several modifications to air con compressors and locations. The big problem is the fact that the only power take off point is the camshaft pulley, already busy driving the pumps and alternator. Adding the load of a compressor through a third grooved water pump pulley is problematical ( and I believe 3 groove pulleys are rare. No doubt I will be corrected ). The camshaft pully itself is too lightly built, with a cast (?) splined centre with pressed metal pulleys rivetted to the centre. Clutching compressor loads stress the rivetted joints.
Guido, you are in for an amusing and educational ride here. The things are basically simple but require a definite line of attack, best described as removing layer upon layer, making sure components like the steering rack and steering column are returned to their exact position and orientation. Even in period the metallic French paint was not robust. My mother's DS 21 Pallas originally in Palladium grey ( a mid silver reserved for Pallas versions at the time ) required a repaint in GM Silver Mink after only a year or so in the Cairns sun.
When you start the disassembly keep EVERY nut and bolt. Citroen manufactured their own and they have a different pitch. As you will see elsewhere here, some sizes are almost unobtainable.
Again my contribution may be viewed as negative. Not intended as such, just realistic and born of experience. These are not things that can be serviced at Kmart.
 
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