Help with DS Fuel Lines

[daffyduck]

Flying to Italy?
Hey! I'm still over here!
Fly me over there instead of flying to Italy.
I hope your arms don't get tired.

 

[Don B. Cilly]

Oh, I already flew back. Arms are fine, I decided to be boring and use an airplane.

Anyway, even though it's Friday 13th, not an auspicious day for French cars, I took Therese for a spin to the warehouse (some 25 km there and back).
No problems, but I didn't push it. 110 kph max.
I'll try and push it a bit more next time.
Meantime, as rust is still getting to the pump, I've ordered the decanter filter

As to flying someone from America here to look at Sophie's electrics... I guess it's closer than Australia, and there doesn't seem to be anyone in Europe willing to to that, so, hey maybe.

 

[Leconte]

This is what leads me to believe you have a fueling problem with a likely cause being a vacuum created by non venting.



Sounds like it is blocked

Once you have removed the nut and bolt the top can be separated and taken to a work bench and cleaned, just ensure there is free flow of air, the underside part you will have to clean in situ. If the small rislan line is clear all is good. This is an important component as it is the only vent to the atmosphere!!

If the problem were rust in the tank you would be filling/clogging your fuel filter and the only way the car would restart would be to clean the filter each time the car stopped. It would be obvious as to the cause and remedy. Yes you probably have rust in the tank but that I believe is another issue. Forget magnets smoke and mirrors get the system working as it was designed.

Cheers
Chris

hi Chris and everyone,

I have been having similar problems to Don and came to the same conclusion that a vacuum lock may be the problem. In my case on my 62 ID, at present driving or even idling at lights on an incline leads to stalling that is clearly fuel starvation.

so starting with the easy end I am trying to get this extra small fuel vent apart, without any success. The bolt is rusted on with dirt and rust, i am applying INOX to no avail, on the other side of the elephant ear I have this black painted (maybe stainless) cap that I cannot remove (will not unscrew or pull off) and when trying to unbolt the bolt on the wheel well side, the cap rotates but uNfortunately when holding the cap still on the outside, the bolt and rusted thread can still rotate. Hence I am getting nowhere with removing the bolt or the large cap. To make matters worse the thin rubber washer on the outside is persihed and has now fallen off so the whole assembly is a bit loose on the elephant ear.

Photos are below. My questions are:

how does the outside cap come off? It won't budge even if I hold what may be the housing (the narrow part on the same side of the elephant ear between the line of the "cap" and the ear itself) still with needle nose plyers. I assume the phillips head screw is under the cap but I cannot move the cap without everything spinning. You can see my scratch marks in the photos from the pliers.

how does this unit prevent a vacuum anyway when nothing seems open to the outside air? I hope I am not barking up the wrong tree.

i am scared I will break the plastic "bowl" that the bolt runs though which I imagine is pretty hard to source.

Also - Forumnoreason - you said that the small rislan tube "could" come off the larger Rislan tube where they join, but is that actually true from experience? It seems very firmly embedded if not plastic welded or glued in place.

I will probably drain the tank and take out the tank filter and clean it this weekend, are there any traps with that? i assume I just unscrew it and take it off, clean it in petrol and screw it back in. It appears to be a stack of washers, like the one in the Guiot fuel pump at the engine (which I have cleaned several times).

i cannot diagnose/ fix other problems with this car (frontend knocks and noise, clutch jumping) until I can drive it without stalling on every incline. Very very frustrated at present.

I hope this is not seen as a thread "hijack", but since I am having the same problems as Don I thought I could add to this one.

Photos of the vent "cap" below.



Regards,
Leconte

 

[GreenBlood]

^^

It looks like you have the earlier vent, I've not played with one of these but it should be much the same as the later version.

With that nut, try taking two nuts up the thread, using the lower to lock onto the upper, then with two spanners, one on the rusted nut and one on the locked nut carefully loosen the rusted nut, - if that makes sense?

If you damage the rislan tube, make a clean cut and sleeve the break with nylon tubing and superglue. . .

Cheers
Chris

 

[Leconte]

^^

It looks like you have the earlier vent, I've not played with one of these but it should be much the same as the later version.

With that nut, try taking two nuts up the thread, using the lower to lock onto the upper, then with two spanners, one on the rusted nut and one on the locked nut carefully loosen the rusted nut, - if that makes sense?

If you damage the rislan tube, make a clean cut and sleeve the break with nylon tubing and superglue. . .

Cheers
Chris

hi Chris, very quick reply, thanks. I had similar thoughts (more nuts as a locknut) but there is only about 6mm of thread showing, so I don't think I would get two more nuts on it. I will try cleaning the rust off the threads with my dremel using a wire brush attachment, and probably have to file the protruding thread down to a pair of flats so I can grip it.

But has anyone a clue about removing the cap on the other side of the ear? Surely it is possible, although I have the same arrangment on my 65 ID and that seems similarly immovable (and even more heavily painted which doesn't help at all).

Cheers Leconte

 

[GreenBlood]

hi Chris, very quick reply, thanks. I had similar thoughts (more nuts as a locknut) but there is only about 6mm of thread showing, so I don't think I would get two more nuts on it. I will try cleaning the rust off the threads with my dremel using a wire brush attachment, and probably have to file the protruding thread down to a pair of flats so I can grip it.

But has anyone a clue about removing the cap on the other side of the ear? Surely it is possible, although I have the same arrangment on my 65 ID and that seems similarly immovable (and even more heavily painted which doesn't help at all).

Cheers Leconte

Looking at the manual, it appears the upper cap is a press fit?

Cheers
Chris

 

[Leconte]

Looking at the manual, it appears the upper cap is a press fit?

Cheers
Chris

It does indeed if you blow up that picture! I tried to move it with a metal paint scraper in the fine gap where it appears to press or screw on with no hint of movement but the whole thing and the ear itself seems somewhat delicate so you cannot apply too much force. I will see how I go tomorrow. I think cleaning up the thread and trying to remove the nut 2319-S from the other side is the best bet to start with.

Can't quite work out the diagram in relation to my cars but it seems that on these earlier IDs the DS 175-81 is replaced by the DM 175-110 and it has the cap DM 175-13 covering the bolt head of 189-S whereas on the later models there is no cap and the bolt is accessible (and seems by other posts to be a phillips head bolt).

thanks Chris

 

[forumnoreason]

You just want one more nut not two on there, try tightening the old nut a little first to break the corrosion.
Don't try and prise that cap apart because there'll be tears.

 

[Leconte]

Successful? Hopefully so

Hi don + chris,

Well I think I have had some success here. I tackled removing the upper vent unit from the elephant ear by firstly cleaning the rust off the nut and thread, then holding the end of the thread with needlenose pliers was able to move the nut, swap pliers to before the nut to get it over the (now) slightly damaged threads.

The metal part with the bolt came off one side and the rislan hemisphere off the other side. Photos:



All pretty dirty and some lumps of hardened rubber on the rislan. No sign of any rubber washer on the rislan side in spite of the recess that clearly looks formed to take one. Bolt floating free in the metal filter/vent but I was still unable to separate the cap off it to get to the head of the bolt. However looking closely at the cap I could see four small holes, all painted over. Using a jewellers phillips head to open them up, and then I can finally see how the vent works. It looks like there is some metal or fibre filter material inside the cap as well.

Blowing down the Rislan tube shows it is not blocked. Take off the petrol cap, breathe pressure into the tank and holding the rislan hemisphere end next to my ear and I can feel the air coming through. So looking good now for venting, I went in search of some new rubber washers. Nothing at hand so a late afternoon trip to bunnings and the toilet spares section, bought sveral packets of likely looking assorted washers. Found one that fitted perfectly (30mm OD and 24 mm ID but way too fat. Decided I needed a thinner one to be placed on each side to seal and protect the pieces from the metal mounting and vibration etc (wondering if the standard one is like a grommet fitting), so I decided to slice the fat washer in half to get two thinner ones. This proved pretty successful so I refitted the whole unit, still not able to take the cap off. Photos:



After refitting:



I have coated the thread with copper based thread anti-sieze. I tried to fit a plastic cap (grease nipple caps) but the bolt is too small so I thought this grease may provide a bit of antirust even though it will of course cake up with grime.

Then the acid test - but now nearing dusk - took it for a drive from Research via Kangaroo ground to St Andrews and back. Car went very well, no sign of fuel starvation that in recent times has cut in very quickly. Not a definitive run but very very promising.

So the upshot is that those 4 tiny ( 0.75mm dia perhaps) holes in the vent cap may be critical in the fuel delivery system. Certainly with the holes clear, sucking and blowing through the cap is easy. They were completely blocked - mostly by being painted over - before. It could be that for other reasons (ageing fuel pump?) the tolerance to this being blocked is much less than in the past.

I will try a more spirited run tomorrow over some steeper and longer hills that proved the cars undoing on past runs. Hopefully this adds to the sum of AF learning on this topic.

cheers leconte

 

[Don B. Cilly]

If before I seemed to have too little air coming in, now I seem to have too much of it
Still, pending further investigation on that front, I have decided to tackle the rust part.
Decanter filter in boot with a magnet in it (provisional installation).
I'm willing to bet that rust at the pump will be zero pretty soon.

 

[addo]

Thanks to M. Leconte for some very satisfying and instructional resto-porn. I was pleased the approach didn't just break the original open to see how it was assembled, followed by "I'll just cut one off a car in the paddock" or end by driving off with a major panel unfastened.

 

[Leconte]

Thanks Addo. I can report that the problems of fuel starvation are significantly decreased but not totally eliminated. I took a run over to thr ing road (some steep hills on the way), onto it at Greensborough end. Pretty fine but towards the end of that long first incline the car started jerking (in third gear) - violent jerks like a cutout. Slowed a bit and got over the top then continued over to airport west thus proving that I can take the car to Wilson Carburettors there to have the carby fully rebuilt, although not ot be tried during peak hour traffic. Coming home, I had a touch of the same problem a couple of times and definite starvation up a longish hill near home (nearly stalled in second when speed should be steady, changed down to first got a few revs going and kept going).

So still some work to do. I am looking for a new fuel pump diaphragm (Franzose seems to have one) for the Guiot Type H fuel pump in case it it a little perished. I didn't get to take out and clean the filter in he bottom of the petrol tank, will have to do that next as well.

Regards,
Leconte

ps no paddock cars here! Wish there were at times

 

[addo]

At the risk of being considered a heathen, would it be worth installing a small electric diaphragm type pump closer to the tank? A Facet or SU unit both come to mind; the former is very compact.

I've not worked on Dee mechanical pumps, but the AC style units on older Fords used to get iffy when either of the check valve springs corroded.

 

[forumnoreason]

How are the main bearings? I had that little problem awhile back.

 

[Leconte]

How are the main bearings? I had that little problem awhile back.

Blimey, I have not even considered something like that and I would not have a clue what state they are in. Motor runs sweetly when not under load and on the road a lot of the time, apart from what I think are these fuel issues. But what were your symptoms and wouldn't it I expect it to rapidly deteriorate? I wouldn't say main bearings going is a little problem. I had them go suddenly in a toyota corolla and it was undriveable except to limp home.

I was wondering about the engine mounts and planning to get someone like David Gries to check it out and come for a drive with me to diagnose various issues (yes it has multiple "issues" for example there is also a strong thumping that feels rotational coming through from the front end that also comes and goes).

Regards, Leconte

 

[Leconte]

Sorry Don for hijacking your whole thread!

 

[forumnoreason]

Violent shuddering and knocking was symptom, I did have leaking head gasket too. Which didn't help. The shuddering was what prompted dismantling.

 

[Don B. Cilly]

Sorry Don for hijacking your whole thread!

Wasn't mine, I used an existing one meself
And we all have something to learn from other people's experiences anyway don't we.

Still, while I'm at it, I have a nagging doubt... say my air bubble problem turns out to be the cracked rislan tube inside the tank... improbable from what I'm seeing at the moment, but just in case...
How does one attempt to fix that without cutting the tank open?

 

[GreenBlood]

Still, while I'm at it, I have a nagging doubt... say my air bubble problem turns out to be the cracked rislan tube inside the tank... improbable from what I'm seeing at the moment, but just in case...
How does one attempt to fix that without cutting the tank open?

Don,
Why not ask Marco (CitroMarco on your Italian forum. . .) In emails I have found him to be informed and generous with his knowledge. As he is selling repro tanks, he should know if these have the rislan tube in place, or if it needs to be retrofitted.
http://www.citroservices.com/default.asp?l=1&idA=9&idC=28&cmd=getProd&cmdID=69

Looking at the pictures of the opened tank on the German link, there is a metal fuel feed tube that falls short of the fuel filter, the rislan tube then reaches the distance from the metal tube to the filter. The question I'd be asking, is how far into the metal tube does the rislan tube enter. If it is only a short distance say 100mm or so, then it could be easily replaced but is also unlikely to cause your symptoms.

More likely is your taped repair to that connection on the outside of the tank, why not use a piece of fuel line with a couple of correct clamps as a more positive and permanent fix?

Cheers
Chris

 

[Don B. Cilly]

Well, I'd rather not ask Marco as I almost bought a new tank from him but then we got stuck on shipment to Spain, put it on hold, and now I got the decanter filter in the boot so I'm hoping not to buy the tank...

Still, the car seems to be running well. I put some more fuel in it, still saw some bubbles at the pump filter (not many), no bubbles at the boot filter, if this were a Warner Bros cartoon I'd have birds and bells around my head, I'll keep investigating if it has to be the end of me, if I come to any conclusions I'll let y'all know,

Weather (among other things) is slowing me down.
This is not a particularly rainy place, but this winter... we're going Macondo*

* It rained four years, eleven months, and two days. There were periods of drizzle during which everyone put on his full dress and a convalescent look to celebrate the clearing, but the people soon grew accustomed to interpret the pauses as a sign of redoubled rain. The sky crumbled into a set of destructive storms and out of the north came hurricanes that scattered roofs about and knocked down walls and uprooted every last plant of the banana groves.

--- Gabriel García Márquez - One Hundred Years of Solitude