First car being a Peugeot 205 GTi? Thoughts...

If you have the skill, time, workshop equipment and space to do a lot of work yourself, you might be able to do a car like that economically. However, I don't think it is realistic to think that you will do an engine rebuild yourself if this is your first project and you are starting from a point of zero mechanical experience and equipment. If you are more like me, you'll probably end up doing work like chasing down parts, doing more minor repairs and assembling things and farm the major work out to others. You have to be honest with yourself about how much you are really able to do yourself.

As very rough guesses, based on Sydney prices, if you farm the major work out to others but do lots of assembly, detail work etc, I would have thought you'd need to budget on the following:
  • engine rebuild around $6k? (I'm not sure, but I spent roughly twice this for a Jaguar engine, which isn't actually much more complex.)
  • redo seats - at least $3k
  • probably need rear beam - $1,200
  • little bits of rust repair, prep shell and respray - at least $6k, potentially significantly more unless you do a fair bit of the prep work or do a cheap job.
That doesn't take any account of time or cost to chase down parts like bumpers or wheel arches that are getting harder and more expensive to source.

The biggest challenge with a phase 1 car like that is the dash. They all disintegrate - especially around the glovebox - and you cannot get parts to repair them. For that reason, many people source and put a later dash in them - not 'original', but easier to source and not quite as fragile.

There will inevitably be plenty of time and cost for other incidentals like water hoses, cables, various trim bits, tyres, minor electricals, brakes etc etc.
 
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I see experience varies here.

My suggestion is it is best you get the car together as is and drive it. The ad pages are full of unfinished projects of people who bit more than they could chew.

I myself have done that (assembled the car and drove it for a while).

This assumes the car is driveable to begin with, which means suspension, steering and brakes are in good order. If they are not, they are not that hard to put right, the car is simple. The rear beam is the only problematic area, but if that is still good, the rest is rather basic. There are people around/shops where you can take your rear beam to be dealt with though I do not know the cost. Thankfully that was one problem my car didn't have.

This approach helps focus your effort in the right direction. If the mechanicals are right, you can see what the engine needs based on your driving experience. Once you ascertain that, you can make a decision, keep stuff or rebuild?

In my experience, the engine was not hard to rebuild (did all the work one can reasonably do without a machine shop myself). After all, it is quite agricultural. I built a list of materials I needed and started buying stuff as I found it. When I had everything in my hands, I rebuilt the engine whilst keeping the car on the road until the last moment. When that was done, took a couple of days to plonk it in and put the car back on the road.

Keep in mind, I kept everything OEM. I renewed everything that can be renewed, and farmed out camshaft, crankshaft and head work (all back to OEM spec). New piston/liner kit form factory.

With that done, my hardest problem was finding a pristine block. These corrode at the base of the liners and although some people argue you can find a good block for not much money everywhere, my experience was different. Once over that hurdle it was plain sailing. Only decked it for peace of mind. Didn't need anything else.

Final cost just over 10k. Result a sweet engine that just went over 60k km without any problems and it drives like a 205GTI should.

If you have g'box problems, more money. Mine was perfect so I didn't spend anything there. New clutch and refaced flywheel and done. 3-400$ or so.

Driveshafts were good too, no money spent.

Cooling required a radiator recore. About 300 bucks.

Other bits and bobs about 1k.

Biggest amount of work on my car went into rebuilding the wiring, which was a mess. Took three months of hard slog but it is all back to spec and everything works the way it should. Cost 200 bucks for a wreck I pillaged for wires/connectors/etc. Don't want to do it again, ever.

Didn't worry much about the interior, it is well worn, but functional. Cracked dash bits but still holding together.

Paint is crappy, but I don't care.

Has a bit a rust in the bottom front corner of the LH rear quarter panel, just at the base of the B pillar, nothing to worry about. Didn't do anything about it.

There you have it.

Don't think the car would repay for itself, but then again, I don't plan to ever sell it.

One last thing, you need to invest in some tools. Once you study a little bit you will see what they are. I ended up buying a bore gauge and a good dial gauge torque wrench, more suited to working on Aluminium blocks. These were about 600k together, but are top notch (and I did a few engines so cost was justified).
 
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I wouldn't touch a 205 for a first-timer. I can't count how many times I understeered my 323 into the outside of roundabouts and dog-leg turns through misjudgement of actual grip. Luckily that was a very forgiving car and if I did ever come unstuck I had airbags. The 205 would have probably made it around those bends fine with a more experienced driver. But it's such a 'nervous' car that it almost needs the same amount of self-restraint as riding a motorcycle. It's just too addictive to do stupid shit.
 
I see a basic rebuild kit for a Holden red motor is $199 now at Autobarn. Doesn't seem that long ago they were $70. Bloody inflation.🤬
 
4cvgordini said:
A few things:

First: I have never sold a car (or washed one either). What I buy as a toy, I intend keeping. In such decisions, it helps to get something that is well enough thought of that bits will always be available by reproduction.

Second: I learned to fang cars by driving around the Adelaide hills as an undergraduate. Vehicles were my mother's bog standard Renault Dauphine on cross-plies &, later, the bog standard R8 1100 which replaced it & 3 Renault 4CVs of mine. The R8 was inherited & is (mildly modified) still owned by me The third 4CV was bought from the original owner by me in early 1968. It has gone through various stages of modification & is now wildly modified.

These cars are parts-supported by the cult status of Alpine A110 & R8 Gordini vehicles.

Another toy is my 1979 Moke (again, mildly modified). This is parts-supported by the Mini-Cooper cult industry.

The last of my four toys is a Matra Djet. The club in France manufactures bits that are bespoke to it & much of it is R8 & R8 Gordini based so see above.

So: all old but all easy to keep on the road. I don't have a "daily driver" & cycle through the four toys. Yes they break down but I have never had more than two out at once.

Third: yes they are all slower than modern stuff but, echoing an earlier post, each is a hoot to fang. The secret is "feel" & exploitable limits. And yes, each is much more dangerous than modern stuff were it to ever be in a serious prang. One can ameliorate the problem (three toys have four point harnesses & two have roll cages & all have good tyres) but not eliminate it. Mind you, each is super-responsive & intuitively controllable in dynamically extreme circumstances (especially the Djet) so I have a better chance of avoiding a problem than in something more lumpen, though modern, especially as their behaviour in extremis is familiar from decades of use.

Which brings me to my suggestion: buy a classic Mini. Most available will be the square-fronted Clubman & even the lesser ones are easy to upgrade to the 1275cc engine & front disc brakes. Adelaide no doubt has at least one Mini specialist & a good club. The standard 4.5 x 10 wheels will take a 165/70 tyre & a half way decent tyre (Yokohama A008) is still available. From experience with my Moke, I'd also recommend a "fly-off" handbrake kit.

If you do seek to get one, the main thing is to have the body thoroughly inspected (rust proofing was minimal although Adelaide's dry heat helps).

cheers! Peter
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice Peter.
 
Richard W said:
If you have the skill, time, workshop equipment and space to do a lot of work yourself, you might be able to do a car like that economically. However, I don't think it is realistic to think that you will do an engine rebuild yourself if this is your first project and you are starting from a point of zero mechanical experience and equipment. If you are more like me, you'll probably end up doing work like chasing down parts, doing more minor repairs and assembling things and farm the major work out to others. You have to be honest with yourself about how much you are really able to do yourself.

As very rough guesses, based on Sydney prices, if you farm the major work out to others but do lots of assembly, detail work etc, I would have thought you'd need to budget on the following:
  • engine rebuild around $6k? (I'm not sure, but I spent roughly twice this for a Jaguar engine, which isn't actually much more complex.)
  • redo seats - at least $3k
  • probably need rear beam - $1,200
  • little bits of rust repair, prep shell and respray - at least $6k, potentially significantly more unless you do a fair bit of the prep work or do a cheap job.
That doesn't take any account of time or cost to chase down parts like bumpers or wheel arches that are getting harder and more expensive to source.

The biggest challenge with a phase 1 car like that is the dash. They all disintegrate - especially around the glovebox - and you cannot get parts to repair them. For that reason, many people source and put a later dash in them - not 'original', but easier to source and not quite as fragile.

There will inevitably be plenty of time and cost for other incidentals like water hoses, cables, various trim bits, tyres, minor electricals, brakes etc etc.
Click to expand...
Thanks Richard for this insightful information.
 
schlitzaugen said:
I see experience varies here.

My suggestion is it is best you get the car together as is and drive it. The ad pages are full of unfinished projects of people who bit more than they could chew.

I myself have done that (assembled the car and drove it for a while).

This assumes the car is driveable to begin with, which means suspension, steering and brakes are in good order. If they are not, they are not that hard to put right, the car is simple. The rear beam is the only problematic area, but if that is still good, the rest is rather basic. There are people around/shops where you can take your rear beam to be dealt with though I do not know the cost. Thankfully that was one problem my car didn't have.

This approach helps focus your effort in the right direction. If the mechanicals are right, you can see what the engine needs based on your driving experience. Once you ascertain that, you can make a decision, keep stuff or rebuild?

In my experience, the engine was not hard to rebuild (did all the work one can reasonably do without a machine shop myself). After all, it is quite agricultural. I built a list of materials I needed and started buying stuff as I found it. When I had everything in my hands, I rebuilt the engine whilst keeping the car on the road until the last moment. When that was done, took a couple of days to plonk it in and put the car back on the road.

Keep in mind, I kept everything OEM. I renewed everything that can be renewed, and farmed out camshaft, crankshaft and head work (all back to OEM spec). New piston/liner kit form factory.

With that done, my hardest problem was finding a pristine block. These corrode at the base of the liners and although some people argue you can find a good block for not much money everywhere, my experience was different. Once over that hurdle it was plain sailing. Only decked it for peace of mind. Didn't need anything else.

Final cost just over 10k. Result a sweet engine that just went over 60k km without any problems and it drives like a 205GTI should.

If you have g'box problems, more money. Mine was perfect so I didn't spend anything there. New clutch and refaced flywheel and done. 3-400$ or so.

Driveshafts were good too, no money spent.

Cooling required a radiator recore. About 300 bucks.

Other bits and bobs about 1k.

Biggest amount of work on my car went into rebuilding the wiring, which was a mess. Took three months of hard slog but it is all back to spec and everything works the way it should. Cost 200 bucks for a wreck I pillaged for wires/connectors/etc. Don't want to do it again, ever.

Didn't worry much about the interior, it is well worn, but functional. Cracked dash bits but still holding together.

Paint is crappy, but I don't care.

Has a bit a rust in the bottom front corner of the LH rear quarter panel, just at the base of the B pillar, nothing to worry about. Didn't do anything about it.

There you have it.

Don't think the car would repay for itself, but then again, I don't plan to ever sell it.

One last thing, you need to invest in some tools. Once you study a little bit you will see what they are. I ended up buying a bore gauge and a good dial gauge torque wrench, more suited to working on Aluminium blocks. These were about 600k together, but are top notch (and I did a few engines so cost was justified).
Click to expand...
Thanks Schlitzaugen.
 
You need to be able to check stuff even when done by professionals if you don't want to find yourself scratching your head after you assembled your engine and something went wrong. A bore gauge is indispensable if you want to check conrod and big ends.
The torque wrench is a very fine and rare Tohnichi with Mututoyo dial indicator so you have a live dispaly of torque applied. Essential if you want to avoid stripping threads in alloy blocks.
 
hey mate, I was lucky enough to find a 1993 205 gti for my first car (2018). I paid 5500 (280km on the clock) and probably spent that if not more in maintenance in the last 3-4 years. Although my one has super high kms now (340k), it has been pretty reliable for the first 3 years. During ownership, I also purchased a BMW 130i, which was a different type of car being RWD with 260hp (also manual), but not as fun. It was originally going to replace the 205 but I couldn't do it, in the twistys it was every bit as quick and had way more feel than the Bmw (left for dead if it was uphill). Friends have had WRXs, JCWs and other BMWs but I have always been very happy in the 205. Both the WRX and JCW, have had some large reliability issues aswell. It's not the quickest, safest, fastest or reliable on that list you originally posted, but in my opinion it's probably the coolest.
The main issue is part sourcing, but apart from that I think they are pretty good for a car of their age in terms of reliability.
 

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flock said:
I wouldn't touch a 205 for a first-timer. I can't count how many times I understeered my 323 into the outside of roundabouts and dog-leg turns through misjudgement of actual grip. Luckily that was a very forgiving car and if I did ever come unstuck I had airbags. The 205 would have probably made it around those bends fine with a more experienced driver. But it's such a 'nervous' car that it almost needs the same amount of self-restraint as riding a motorcycle. It's just too addictive to do stupid shit.
Click to expand...
I agree. Taking into account all that has been said on this thread, getting a 205 for a first-timer just doesn't add up.
 
First timers should have a sh!tbox in which they can make mistakes and learn.
My 306XSi is my third car and for keepsies. Only one airbag but that’s for me. 🤷🏼‍♂️
Also, all kids should go fanging on an outdoor go cart track in the wet. I know that muscle memory has saved me from mishap on public roads.
 
schlitzaugen said:
And if you want to consider a 205Si, here's one:

www.gumtree.com.au

1991 Peugeot 205 SI 1.6 | Other Automotive | Gumtree Australia Brisbane South East - Capalaba | 1313576464

If this ad is still up its available For sale is one 1991 Peugeot 205 SI with 16 GBDY engine and driveline Car is sold as is, unregistered and ..., 1313576464
www.gumtree.com.au www.gumtree.com.au

A bit rough, but not discouraging.
Click to expand...

Yeah, what about a 205 Si? Rough-ish ones like that one come up from time to time, for (realistically) much less money than GTIs. All the same problems as a GTI discussed above (safety, parts, age, plastic, etc etc), but lower price of admission and some people really like them...

see website: 205.si
 
I too think a 205Si is a good entry point and would definitely tske it up. Never had the chance to drive one but I have spares wreck and difference are minimal. Very easy to upgrade if desired.
I also think 205Si desrve to be saved and preserved for the future because they are a worthy member of the old school small hatchback class.
 
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