Extractors?? please help

X

Xsara VTR

Member
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
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116
Location
Sydney
Hey guys,

I have been quoted around $2500 for a full exhaust system.....from Italy supplied by Nick from pugaction.com.

Extractors to suit OEM Cat $1127 (801-701)
Centre Pipe to suit OEM cat $579 (802-703)
Rear Exhuast box $719 (802-704)

<img src="http://www.supersprint.com/prodotti/801701.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.supersprint.com/prodotti/802703.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://www.supersprint.com/prodotti/802704.jpg" alt=" - " />

Thing is that I can get custom extractors and piping from Surelow Exhaust for around $1000. All with HPC coating (ceramic) with lowers temps and increases air flow.

So thats my dilemma choose, quality and definite(???) testing OR custom, cheaper and good reputable company?

Tell me what you think guys, I dont want a high performance pocket rocket, but the more the better but at a reasonable price....

<a href="http://www.supersprint.com/homeuk.htm" target="_blank">http://www.supersprint.com/homeuk.htm</a>
Cheers
 
Two & a half grand for an exhaust system is bloody insane. Over there, that's worth more than the car would be worth!!
We had a system made up by a local exhaust guy including mandrel bent pipes for the extractors and then had the lot metal sprayed & from memory the whole shooting match was less than $1000.
The systems on most of these cars are a good design and aftermarket stuff may make it sound the duxnuts but will have little if any effect on performance in its own right.
There's more mumbo jumbo outlandish claims about non applicable parts giving way out performance figures than there is fleas on a dogs back & in reality, any aftermarkey system you get will be noisier than the original, possibly rattle due to non standard mounts being used, won't make a scrap of difference to performance and unless it's stainless probably won't last any longer than original.
I'd suggest going & have a talk to your local "Berklee" or similar man, get him onside, tell him what you want to achieve & if you get a good operator, you'll end up with twice as good a system at a fraction of the price.
I had a V8 5 litre Commodore muffler fitted to my BX 16V and it sounds beeeudiful and goes as well as it ever did. whistle :D
The extractors shown on the website look exactly the same as the originals, so why pay the dosh to have smebody living in the manner to which they've grown accustomed for no personal benefit to you? :confused: :confused:

Alan S cheers! citroen_
 
So are you saying that there is not much chance I will gain more power??

so therefore has anyone else tried this???
 
Extract taken from <a href="http://www.surefloexhaust.com.au" target="_blank">www.surefloexhaust.com.au</a>
Extractors page

"We made this set of custom tuned extractors for a V6 Peugeot Rally car. They were then HPC Coated and fitted to the car. The owner was rapt in the extra performance displayed by his car. Faster revving, more torque and increased acceleration."
 
Xsara VTR:
Extract taken from <a href="http://www.surefloexhaust.com.au" target="_blank">www.surefloexhaust.com.au</a>
Extractors page

"We made this set of custom tuned extractors for a V6 Peugeot Rally car. They were then HPC Coated and fitted to the car. The owner was rapt in the extra performance displayed by his car. Faster revving, more torque and increased acceleration."
Click to expand...
But was it tested on the same dyno, before and after?

If not, it sounds like the fundamental attribution error (attributing something to an external factor) to me - you've just spent all this money so you want it to be better! We all do it, to justify our (sometimes irrational) decisions.

I wish whoever designed that site had a better grasp of the English language. Their misuse of apostrophes is appauling!! I'd like to see "Extractor's" that own themselves :D

That's my comment for the day...
Derek.
 
Hey at least they got the spelling of 'rapt' correct. It seems that most performance workshops *cough* have piss-poor communications skills anyway. It must be built into the course.

Xsara - have you identified exactly what is wrong with the standard manifold? Are there any/many improvements to be made? I can't imagine that a manufucturer would purposely make things less efficient, especially with todays technology.

Extractor design is a pretty tricky thing, and I won't pretend to know anything about it.....because I don't, but theres all sorts of factors that contribute to a solution, and I'm not exactly convinced that most workshops have the same know-how as the R&D dept of a large manufacturer.

I'd love to be proven wrong though. As Deka said, make sure you get a before and after dyno-sheet at an independent workshop. Don't just look at the outright power claims either. Make sure driveability and torque down low is not sacrificed by top end scream.
 
If you are going for a custom system made locally good workmanship is one thing but the design of the system is equally important.
There are several spreadsheets around which will calculate primary length/diameter, collector size, secondary length/diameter and tail pipe length/diameter.
You need to input several factors into the spreadsheet to get these sizes such as capacity, valve size, rpm range etc etc.
Get hold of a good spreadsheet and work out the sizes and insist that your manufacturer produces what you ask for.
That way you should get as good if not better than the expensive overseas system.

Ross renault_
 
Xsara VTR:
So are you saying that there is not much chance I will gain more power??

so therefore has anyone else tried this???
Click to expand...
No, I'd go further than that; I'd say there is no chance you will gain more power by just changing the exhaust system. If so, it would be so small you wouldn't notice.

I have no doubt they did with the Rally car, but we're talking smoke & mirror tricks here.
Take a standard motor; increase compression or turbo it; bore it out, alter cams etc, port & polish, remap ECU and a thousand other little things that all add up to an overall increase in power.
Test car with standard exhaust system; then fit a freer flowing system with tuned pipes etc built especially for this car with all the mods being taken into consideration and retest the car on the Dyno and BINGO !! a large increase.

Tested as a basic modern car and with reduction in backpressures in some cases, it is not beyond belief the performance could fall off at certain sections of the performance scale.
As with the chip tuning you asked about, I still get the impression you're on the right track but going arsend first to apply it.

Alan S cheers!
 
i'm a long way from bieng an expert on those pipes that carry gas and make noise
but, if what you have is very close to what you can get why change ?
if you had say a 504 or 604 or R17 or something older i'd say yeah look around and see what there is out there as we are talking old technomaloney.
but, as others have said here, with todays technomaloney there isn't a lot you can do to an exhaust that is already extractor based and the manufacturer has spent countless hours testing different setups on the same engine that they also designed.
 
i dont think it is a good option. i have left the factory manifold in my car, had a look at it and its not a bad piece of work, saw no reason to piss it off for an overpriced set of extractors like the ones above or for an underated exhaust shop job. i say leave it as is.

Extractors on any 4cyl Naturally aspriated car wont do much performance at all. when you get into bigger motors like the v6, v8 and then forced incution cars a good system will help.

there isn't much point in getting this system, and the price is redicilious. i am sure all the people in Hot4's and Fast4's will tell you to get the biggest best system you can put on a car. the people there really dont have any idea, especially about french cars, and they would neglect the fact that the factory systems are very well developed.

All i have is a Cat Back noise maker. sounds like it goes faster. i dunno if it does though. i cost me $350 fitted with 2 chrome tips and suits my needs.

Julian
 
Originally posted by DeKa
<strong>But was it tested on the same dyno, before and after?

If not, it sounds like the fundamental attribution error (attributing something to an external factor) to me - you've just spent all this money so you want it to be better! We all do it, to justify our (sometimes irrational) decisions.

I wish whoever designed that site had a better grasp of the English language. Their misuse of apostrophes is appauling!! I'd like to see "Extractor's" that own themselves.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's appalling all right... I should apply for a job helping ad agencies and webmasters straighten out their spelling and grammar!

I think you're right here, too, DeKa... let the exhausts get all the credit for what the cams and so on are doing, not to mention the tune-up that's done while the whole shebang's tried out on the dyno.

If the car has extractors at the moment, I wouldn't spend a penny on the exhaust system unless it needs a pipe or muffler replaced. Then I'd more likely go the way Alan has... fit something off a local car that will do the job.

Likely as not with a modern car, there's no room to put a better design in even if you could come up with one that didn't ruin the power at some part of the rev range anyway. But if you did try, I think you'd be looking to link number 4 cylinder with number 1 in the primaries, wouldn't you?

I would be interested to know if a four into one might make a difference, but not at the expense that's being touted. I think they're more for top end power, though...
 
Xsara VTR:

Thing is that I can get custom extractors and piping from Surelow Exhaust for around $1000. All with HPC coating (ceramic) with lowers temps and increases air flow.

<a href="http://www.supersprint.com/homeuk.htm" target="_blank">http://www.supersprint.com/homeuk.htm</a>
Cheers
Click to expand...
Just a small correction,
HPC coating actually increases the temperature of the gasses therefore maintaining the flow velocity for longer. That way you get better extraction of the next pulse. Heat wrapping of the headers has similar effects as well as helping to maintain lower underbonnet temps.

As per Xsara's comments maybe retaining the original pipes is the best way , just have them HPC coated.
 
I think any gains to had by a tricky exhaust has a lot to do with whats on it to start with. My brothers 95 diesel Landcruiser had the most primitive exhaust manifold I have ever seen, looked like it came off a 1940s tractor and it must have been strangiling the engine. The addition of extractors and a fresh exhaust made a huge differance to revviness and general drivability and economy.

But with a decent car (ie french) with an efficient manifold already there, the gains are marginal at best. Have a look at the manifold on a Douvrin motor in a Renault - cast iron extractors!
I had a "sports" 2 inch exhaust fitted to my 504 LTi a few years ago, and all I got was a headache on the highway. It may have had a little extra punch, but not enough to offset the noise!
 
There are two different secondary pipe lengths on 404s, as I recall... I think Dave McBean posted that the longer ones had a horsepower gain that went with them.

He definitely reckons on a 4hp gain for the 'big bore' manifold (which has the longer secondaries again) that came on the 1980 505.

These manifolds are similar to those on the Renaults, though the 2.2 engines have a more restrictive manifold in right hand drive manifolds in the Peugeots... again, according to Dave.

This is one car that would gain by the fitment of extractors, it seems. Getting the original exhaust around the right hand steering column was apparently a problem...
 
Ray Bell:
These manifolds are similar to those on the Renaults, though the 2.2 engines have a more restrictive manifold in right hand drive manifolds in the Peugeots... again, according to Dave.

This is one car that would gain by the fitment of extractors, it seems. Getting the original exhaust around the right hand steering column was apparently a problem...
Click to expand...
wonder if you could use a Renault manifold with a tricky engine pipe for a cheaper way out??
 
So is there any other way of making the car go faster?? how bout I put a bigger exhaust pipe to the cat?? which is located near the engine block (im not sure?)

I think I might opt out of the extractors now and get a nice kit, but I still want a car with some go, how does the VTS manage 124kw??
 
it manages that cause its a more tuned bigger motor.

you need to realise that the car wont go fast. it wasn't designed ot be a rocket, and it isn't a slouch anyway... its quite nippy really for what it is. unless your going to throw big bucks at it for a turbo or supercharger... i wouldn't waste a great deal of money on it performance wise.

<small>[ 03 October 2003, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Xsara ]</small>
 
Xsara VTR:
So is there any other way of making the car go faster?? how bout I put a bigger exhaust pipe to the cat?? which is located near the engine block (im not sure?)

I think I might opt out of the extractors now and get a nice kit, but I still want a car with some go, how does the VTS manage 124kw??
Click to expand...
Mate,

I'm not trying to take the p!$$ but to totally simplify matters look at your engine mods as a bathtub.
Put a big free flowing exhaust on it & it's akin to having a bathtub plug to drain the water out & a 5mm pipe leading to a tap trying to fill it. The outs are much bigger than the ins.
Now, do a big number on the intake as was suggested before, turbo, oversize pistons & valves, as well as a pile of other mods at that end of the motor, leave the standard exhaust (more so on Jap cars than French ones) and you end up with a fire hydrant blowing water in & a hand basin plug sized drain trying to get rid of it.
It's all a matter of balance as in equalising what goes in also goes out at a comparable rate.
My suggestion would be to get to know a few of the local aussiefroggers from down your way, socialise with them, go on a few drives & talk to them as well as the rest of those on here who are into mods & track days & I think you'll end up appreciating your car for what it is more than you do now.
We're not a pack of assholes trying to bag all of your ideas, it's just that a lot of us have been down the track you're on at present & learned by our mistakes; you're getting the benefit of our experience.
Make the best of it. dance dance

Alan S
 
Yeh Cheers for the advice....if I go to an exhaust shop, they wouldnt know crap about the French cars, except for their jap crap ones.
 
Start by searching out a Walker Exhausts dealer.
My Cit (so I presume most others) has a Walker system fitted ex factory.
Where I live in Central coastal Queensland I own about 90% of all Citroens in the Town and I can manage to get exhaust work done without any trouble, so I can't really see it being a big problem In Sydney, just be a bit careful who you deal with. As I say, contact with some of the others down your way would be a good starter, that way they may be able to recommend someone.

Alan S cheers!
 
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