cold starts in my 505

nJm

nJm

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One thing that has been consistant in my 505 GR is that every morning it takes 3 goes to start it. For the first two it seems to start to turn over, but then it coughs and dies. It always starts on the third go, and the car will then start first time every time for the rest of the day, no matter how long its left.

Does anyone know why? I know I need new ignition leads and distributor cap, but it actually seems to fire up and then die...

thanks!
 
Im going to be no help here... but mine does the same! Changed the HT leads but no change. I think it might be fuel related because mine seems to be more difficult to start the longer it has been standing. You havent got a Solex carby have you? I think these are famous for having crappy auto chokes...

Ross
 
Hi Ross,
yeah, my 505 has a Solex 32-35 TMIMA carburettor

I suppose its also a trait of this carb's auto choke to make the car pull roughly for the first few minutes after take off on a cold morning?

One thing I'm curious to know, as this is my first carb'd car. In the original instruction book is says for cold starts not to touch the accelerator when starting, whereas for a warm start it says to fully depress the accelerator while you're starting it... I though this sounded a little excessive so I just hold it down a little bit...

from your experience whats the best way?

thanks :)
 
It may be that you are de-setting the choke by fiddling with the pedal, Nick.

Anotrher possibility is that you have a bit of a leaky valve in the fuel pump, and that its taking a while for the fuel to come through first thing in the morning.

Cheers

Rod
 
Nick,

It might be a good idea to check your sparkplug gaps. When warmed up these engines start and run fine even when the sparkplugs are aged and the gap is opened right up, but they can be hard to start on cold mornings with big plug gaps.

I always know when my Pug engines need an ignition tune (plugs, leads or points), because they become hard to start on a cold morning. Apart from that they run great, even when way out of tune (once they are warmed up). These engines have to be one of the least fussy engines around, where sparkplug gaps are concerned. Other makes of cars I've owned become real dogs when the plug gaps are incorrect.

Dave
 
nJm:
Hi Ross,
yeah, my 505 has a Solex 32-35 TMIMA carburettor

I suppose its also a trait of this carb's auto choke to make the car pull roughly for the first few minutes after take off on a cold morning?

One thing I'm curious to know, as this is my first carb'd car. In the original instruction book is says for cold starts not to touch the accelerator when starting, whereas for a warm start it says to fully depress the accelerator while you're starting it... I though this sounded a little excessive so I just hold it down a little bit...

thanks :)
Click to expand...
Nick,

The 32-35 TMIMA caarburettor - I remember it well. There was one on my sister's 505 GR and one on my 604 [34 TBIA] - all those years ago.

There is a special tool [gauge] available to adjust these carburetors and a Peugeot Service Bulletin to explain the adjustment of COAS (Choke Opening after Starting) and PO (Positive Opening). I have one of the tools and a copy of the service bulletin. If you want to email me, I can provide you details of where I bought it and you may be able to obtain one for yourself.

Alternatively, I think (in one of my genuine Peugeot manuals) I remember seeing a drawing of the tool and you could have a go at making one instead. Then with the service bulletin you could set up the TMIMA correctly.

Using this tool is very simple. You remove the side cover on the carburettor to reveal the automatic choke / levers and return spring etc and apply the gauge. It actually depresses the choke mechanism and closes the choke butterfly valve. You adjust the opening of the butterfly by the grub screw on the end of the bellows cover (think the description is correct). The required opening differs depending on carburettor model and car.

The other adjustment sets up the internal position of the pivoting roller.

One thing I do remember is that the small vacuum diaphragm (in compartment behind grubscrew) can sometimes either fail (develop a hole) or fracture - crack... in which case it needs replacing.

From all that you have said, I think your problems are most likely to the be the adjustment on the carburettor. Finally, these carburettors are designed to start as you said with no depressing the accelerator pedal.

cheers

Denis
 
Hi Dave,
its got brand new plugs in it, although as I said, needs a new cap and leads, so it could be something there...

It was serviced by Universe Motors (reasonable Pug specialist) about 2 weeks ago. It got a full inspection too, and they didn't find anything with the fuel pump or carb.

Its not a huge issue though, i just wanted to know why blush
 
My 505 Gti Auto(Bosch L-Jetronic) has 'issues' with cold starts... It idles roughly and the engine will often stall while in drive or reverse to get out of the driveway in the morning. Also, when you rev the engine, and then let the throttle g go back to idle, for a few seconds the revs drop dangerously close to stalling. This has meant i have to keep the idling speed at about 1,100 RPM. Why? It's not THAT important, but it is annoying, and any help with a solution much appreciated :)

<small>[ 02 June 2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Pug505exec ]</small>
 
ARRGGHH, shoot yourself now and spare all the agony !!!!!! Here's a tale that shows you it could be worse....

I have a 89 505 wagon, solex 34/34 CISAC carb, with similar autochoke. After putting up with a year of crap running/starting (no-starting) despite stripping the carb and adjusting with the special tool mentioned above, the thing finally died. It just kept pouring petrol down the manifold, absolutely no go. Gave in and bought a second-hand carb. Even our pug guru advised the same thing. Best $200 I have spent on that car !! (incidentally, the carb came off a car that had a history of similar problems, and the owner claimed under an extended warranty and had a $700 carb rebuild !!! ask yourself...)

And then, after having the new carb on for a week, I did a big trailer towing marathon over the long weekend (we still revere the Queen here...), did 600k round trip crusing at 110ks, and got 28mpg. Was smugly pleased with the old girl, THEN, a kilometre after dropping the trailer off the car just died - no signs of life at all. Investigation proved, ironically after months of flooding probs, the carb was bone dry !!
Hitched home to retrieve a spare fuel pump, but made no difference. Ended up sucking/ blowing/siphoning the line from the tank to the fuel pump, and after a few goes of this away she went. I could have cried !!! This 'vent' of mechanical frustration was for your humor/entertainment, but the dark side is I am just about ready to drive that 505 wagon off a very tall cliff !!!

Of course, it goes without saying that the trusty old XN1A engine has been crusing round for a year almost certainly with a cracked piston. This apparently is par for the course, caused by severe pinking with these 8.8 compression variants. (Ross D above, still keeping your fingers and toes crossed ?!?! ) The disi has been tested, bang on spec. What did Peugeot do wrong with these models ? I should have held out for the injected version!

Ahhh, but it feels so good on the road !!!!
What else is there can carry 8 people at 130kmh with that kind of ride & handling !
( maybe a good old 504 wagon ?) :rolleyes: Oh, for goodness sake Jason - spend the money and buy a Volvo Estate ?! And NO - I STILL won't consider buying a Japanese Van!! :D
 
Jason Morris:


Of course, it goes without saying that the trusty old XN1A engine has been crusing round for a year almost certainly with a cracked piston. This apparently is par for the course, caused by severe pinking with these 8.8 compression variants. (Ross D above, still keeping your fingers and toes crossed ?!?! ) The disi has been tested, bang on spec. What did Peugeot do wrong with these models ? I should have held out for the injected version!
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the fuel injected 8.8:1 XN6 engines often have the same problem!

Some of the early 505 8.8:1 XN1 engines had a much richer jet in the second throat of the carb (160 as opposed to 140 or something). For some reason Peugeot decided to run a pretty lean mixture in these cars and it has had very unfortunate ramifications for their engine life. I would recommed that anyone with one of these engines should fit a Weber (or something else with easy to buy jets), then take it to a dyno tuner and get the carby jetted so that it doesn't ping/pink. Alternatively the dyno tuner could use fractional drill sizes to accurately drill out the standard jets to solve the problem.

Dave
 
Thanks Dave, at least i know it's not just me !
I have a ( hard won ) copy of the factory manual for my solex, the table of 'magic' numbers shows 117 for the primary, 130 for the secondary - what are these exactly - 117 & 130 thou ?

As for putting a weber on : what options are there easily available ? For ease of use (my wife drives it the most) it needs an autochoke. Do you recommend something as old as an early 80's cortina carb ? The ~'86 2.0 Ford Sierras had great Webers, but had stepper motor controlled idle etc. I'm definately not keen on the SU path - seems like even more black magic involved there. As I now have a spare carb, i could bore out the jets if i knew a bit more......
 
Jason,

The 117, 130, 160 etc, is the size in hundredths of a millimetre. It's probably only approximate. I know Weber have standard test jets which they know the flow of, so if a 1.7mm jet is tested and flows the same as a 1.6mm standard test jet, then they inscribe it as a 160, even though it's slightly larger. I'm not sure if Solex do the same, but they may.

A weber from a Cortina or Sierra should work OK on the 505 if in good condition, but often the auto choke part gets corroded out. You can still buy them new for about $400 AUS.

If you can get hold of some drill sizes in the 1.3-1.6mm range (in 0.5mm steps) then you could try drilling out some jets. Jewelers and some Carburetor specialists can get hold of drills in these sizes.

The 160 jet I quoted was for the second throat of a Solex 32/35 TMIMA. Your carb having a 34mm secondary probably wouldn't need to go as large as 1.6mm. Your standard primary throat main jet is probably OK, since the engine is under greatest load when the second throat is opened (and thus more likely to start pinking), although this is not always the case. I'd try to avoid going much larger than standard on the primary main jet, for the sake of economy, but with the second throat you can usually get away with running a tad rich, since you don't use this throat when cruising (unless you cruise really fast).

I hope this helps.

Dave
 
This apparently is par for the course, caused by severe pinking with these 8.8 compression variants. (Ross D above, still keeping your fingers and toes crossed ?!?! )
Click to expand...
Well it seems I have cured the pinking/pinging problem - As I have a Magnetti Marelli (spelling?) dizzy I was able to find a Fiat (Yes yes I know!!) with almost the same dizzy and advance curve in my local scrappy. I whipped the vacuum canister off that and fitted it to the 505; low and behold, no more pinking. I've advanced the ignition slightly and it runs so much better than it used to! I didnt realise you could get such a smooth idle from a Euro Spec XN1A! Performance is better also.
As for the choke problem, I also have the same Solex 34/34 CISAC (or Z1, depends where you read). I think, as said above, the only accurate/reliable way to set these up is with the special "Peugeot" tool.
Incidentally, my 205 also has this carby, but with the manual choke and it has no problems.
Ah well, just my 2 cents worth!!
RossD
 
davemcbean:

If you can get hold of some drill sizes in the 1.3-1.6mm range (in 0.5mm steps) then you could try drilling out some jets. Jewelers and some Carburetor specialists can get hold of drills in these sizes.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I ment 0.05mm steps.

I was just looking at the 505 workshop manual. The second throat of the 34/34 CISAC has a 27mm venturi. Many other carbs with a 34mm throat and 27mm venturi have a main jet in the 135-145 range, so you would probably benefit from just drilling your 130 jet out by 0.05mm-0.15mm. The only problem I can think of is that the air corrector jet for that throat is also 130. Weber recommend that it's not a good idea to have a smaller air corrector than the main jet (I don't know about Solex), although I once had a 32/36 DGAV which had a 115 air corrector in the second throat, even though it had a 140 main jet, and it worked fine (good economy and performance).

Dave
 
Ok, this is great - down to the gritty stuff. (By the way - what do you do for a job Dave ?)

Further delving into the jet thing - my pinking is almost universally at low load/accelerator positions (so using first barrel? ). The worst example is ALWAYS when very gently accelerating to 50kmh, as the box changes from 2nd to third, r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r away it pings. Under heavy throttle, it nearly disappears entirley.

So, if the primary jet is a measly '117', what are your thoughts on increasing this....? Any comparisons with other carbs ?

(looking forward to having a deceased piston as a paper weight)
Thanks,
Jason
 
Jason Morris:

Further delving into the jet thing - my pinking is almost universally at low load/accelerator positions (so using first barrel? ). The worst example is ALWAYS when very gently accelerating to 50kmh, as the box changes from 2nd to third, r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r away it pings. Under heavy throttle, it nearly disappears entirley.

So, if the primary jet is a measly '117', what are your thoughts on increasing this....? Any comparisons with other carbs ?
Click to expand...
OK, sounds like the first throat is the main culprit with the CISAC carb (as opposed to the TMIMA). Alot of 32mm and 34mm carb throats with 24-26mm venturis have a main jet in the 120-140 range, so you could probably increase the size of the jet in the first throat quite a bit without being too rich.

It's probably a good idea to just try going up in 0.05mm steps until the pinking is gone.

As an aside the 32/36 Weber (26/27 venturis) runs quite economically with a 140 main jet in the first throat, however the air correctors are around 160. I think the Solex has much smaller air correctors, so it may not be able to go as high as 140 in the first throat without becoming too thirsty.

Dave
 
Diversing a bit from the orginal topic here..

Just a thought to Jasons pinking problem, what fuel do you guys use in Oz?? Here in the UK we get 95 octane, which is 'normal' unleaded or 97/98 Octane which is 'Super' Unleaded. With the ignition set to the factory spec 10 degrees BTDC, it is almost undrivable on 95 octane, the pinking is just too bad. Change to 98 and you might be able to run it at about 8 degrees before it would start. Currently I cant tell what the static advance is, because some cowboy replaced the crankshaft pulley on mine with a non standard jobbie which has no timing cut-outs on it - I just set it to what it runs best on. No surprises, but the cold starting is also a lot better with 98 octane fuel.
I experimented with jet sizes on my 205, which weirdly as well as having the same carb as the 505, has the same jet sizes too. I found 122 in the primary to be the best, giving a mix of economy and performance, Im not sure about the 505 but this could be a good starting point.
Sorry for the ramble guys!!
Ross
 
Well, in Australia our regular unleaded is 91RON, and we have some premium unleaded at 95RON. Then we have other petrols like Shell Optimax which have 98RON.

Our LRP (lead replacement petrol) doesn't actually have any standards that I'm aware of, so I think its octane rating can change day to day :confused:
 
Ross, here in !!**NZ**!! we only have unleaded, 91 'regular' and 96 'premium/super' although in the last year a few outlets have started selling a new 98 octane. I tried this once in the 505, but it still pinked. With those jets - is your 205 a 1.9 sporty version ?

Dave, one more thought on the jet thing - I have access to a dyno (long story, i helped build one....), would it be easy to spot a lean mixture problem when it's pinking ? I don't have much of a feel for the speed of exhaust gas measurements. The dyno is a pretty snazzy and can simulate most anything. If it was that easy to spot, I could readily step up the diameter like you suggested (lid off, air correction out, jet out, drill, assemble...tedious for the waiting dyno guy !) until it came right.

Hey guys, more exciting than that....In negotiations with the 'boss', discussing the possible routes for engine repair/replacement when the inevitable final happens.....have got a provisional *maybe* for the V6 transplant idea!!!!! woohoo !! I'll do a post in the mods forum about it. Only down side really is mpg - can I bring myself to shell out those $$$ every week! I've never driven a PRV V6 either, which I will try and do soon, as there are a few 505 V6's about here, and the odd 604. (604's are odd ?!, let's not bring up any furballs !!.....)

Thanks(hey my 505 starts ok cold !)
Jason
 
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