Clio sport 182 Gordini special

[R17G]

A car with less power than its supposed predecessor could hardly be considered an improvement, let alone inheritor to the Gordini performance mantel.

The 17TS/G is basically a detuned 12G sourced motor. The 12G puts out 125bhp @ 6250rpm, the 17TS/G 108bhp @ 6000rpm. The source for both of these figures is Renault documentation.

According to Australian literature of the time the TS/G put out 120bhp vs the 102bhp of the TL. Perhaps the output you are quoting is from the later Phase 2 (new front) model that we did not see here, as it had a different engine. Or perhaps from the US version.

 

[B E R E T]

According to Australian literature of the time the TS/G put out 120bhp vs the 102bhp of the TL. Perhaps the output you are quoting is from the later Phase 2 (new front) model that we did not see here, as it had a different engine. Or perhaps from the US version.

Yes - exactly what I was thinking too. The injection system in a European/Australian context of minumal emmisions control at the time, must have useless to have enabled it to develop only 108bhp - a small increase over the 16TS engine.

 

[Simon]

Yes - exactly what I was thinking too. The injection system in a European/Australian context of minumal emmisions control at the time, must have useless to have enabled it to develop only 108bhp - a small increase over the 16TS engine.

Geez, when facts are inserted into the equation things do get awkward. OK, the 108bhp of the 17TS/G is for the R1317/27 version. It is a DIN figure, the figure of 120bhp that R17G quotes is an SAE figure for the same motor. The 125bhp of the 12G motor is DIN so apples were being compared with apples. Depending on the age of the brochure Renault do quote both figures.

As a comparison FYI the 16TS motor produced 83bhp DIN @ 5750rpm.

The AUS spec 17TS/G's were unchanged mechanically from the Euro spec cars, and the AUS spec 17G's were only saddled with evaporative emissions gear over the Euro spec cars which does not affect power output. The low power days of ADR27A were yet to come. In fact that was one of the reasons why the 15/17 range was discontinued in AUS, the cars did not comply with the ADR27A rule, but Renault Australia did import a stock pile of 15's and 17's prior to July 1976 which sold through to 1978.

The Phase 2 (new front) 17 Gordini (R1317) was only sold in LHD, and only a small handful were sold before it was discontinued it used the identical 108bhp DIN motor of the earlier 17TS/G models.

I find it funny that owners like simon are willing to watch the death of a great brand with the death of it's creator, the fact that they look at him and tell us everyone will remember the "Gordini" name when even he dies, who will carry on the names history and cars, I am affraid it will end up as a foot note in the back pages of some book in 80 years time no matter what he says.

Why resurrect a name that hasn't been used in 25 odd years? It likely means nothing to the perceived target audience, (proven at the Adelaide brunch commencement ), whereas the current Renaultsport branding for the performance models could be considered in its infancy in most markets outside France. I'm no marketing expert, but I would believe that it would be better to focus on the Renaultsport branding rather than trying to establish a whole new performance line based on the Gordini brand.

As for Gordini being forgotten and lost, in the recent past 8 Gordini's have featured in numerous English language magazines recently, Stephen Bayley mentioned it as his choice of the most sexiest exhaust note (whatever that means) and 8 Gordini's have been mentioned in recent UK CAR magazines on the context as a cafe racer and in reference to its extreme negative camber on the rear end. Given that most of the Gordini's sold were in Europe, I'd have to say that the penetration of the Gordini (in particular the 8) into the English language classic scene is going quite well and is unlikely to be forgotten.

Unless Renault continue to promote the name to future RS models for example and maybe inspire a new generation of drivers like they did at "Jour Gordini day?", I would love to see renault establish the name again and run a new day with 182 Gordini's on the track just as the old Gordini's were used as well.

Surely this is why Renault have the Renaultsport performance arm? This encompasses and could promote all past battle wins by Renault regardless of whether it is a 750, 8 Gordini, 12 Gordini, 5 Alpine, 12LE or 5 Turbo. Why focus on one model, in the case of Covert the Gordini, for future promotion. Just look at the current Audi advertising campaign, it focusses on all of the past success by Auto Union, not just on a particular point in time.

Get over it all and move on..........

Exactly, Renault currently appears to be about creating the future, their products do demonstrate genuine ingenuity and progress (perhaps the Avantime and Vel Satis were/are a bit too far ahead in terms of utility). Renaultsport in my opinion is a suitable designation for the performance arm. But if they decide to do any special versions, being the sporting arm, it should involve more than just paint and stripes. As I have typed before, a Gordini was more than paint and stripes and deserves more than that on the current version!

 

[B E R E T]

Geez, when facts are inserted into the equation things do get awkward. OK, the 108bhp of the 17TS/G is for the R1317/27 version. It is a DIN figure, the figure of 120bhp that R17G quotes is an SAE figure for the same motor. The 125bhp of the 12G motor is DIN so apples were being compared with apples. Depending on the age of the brochure Renault do quote both figures.

As a comparison FYI the 16TS motor produced 83bhp DIN @ 5750rpm.

The AUS spec 17TS/G's were unchanged mechanically from the Euro spec cars, and the AUS spec 17G's were only saddled with evaporative emissions gear over the Euro spec cars which does not affect power output. The low power days of ADR27A were yet to come. In fact that was one of the reasons why the 15/17 range was discontinued in AUS, the cars did not comply with the ADR27A rule, but Renault Australia did import a stock pile of 15's and 17's prior to July 1976 which sold through to 1978.

The Phase 2 (new front) 17 Gordini (R1317) was only sold in LHD, and only a small handful were sold before it was discontinued it used the identical 108bhp DIN motor of the earlier 17TS/G models.

Hmmm - 108 bhp DIN - that's not so good. My trusty old Wheels magazines had a mixture of DIN and SAE power figures in the articles and price listtable at the back. Being a European car, I assumed the 120 bhp was DIN. Back then a fuel injected car used FI most to boost power in a big way over the carb version, except in Amercia where it was used for emissions etc. A good example is the BMW 2002 at 100 bhp DIN and the tii at 130 bhp DIN. That is why I assumed the 120 bhp (as DIN) figure to be feasible - against something like a Fiat 124 Sport which had twin cams and carbs but of course no injection.

Then again a 1st generation Golf GTI was a non crossflow 1.6 SOHC with injection around 1976 and that had 110 bhp DIN. I would have expected the TS/G (especially as a Gordini which is supposed to be quite powerful) - before I discoved that the TS/G were basically the same car and power output etc.

 

[Stuey]

Surely this is why Renault have the Renaultsport performance arm? This encompasses and could promote all past battle wins by Renault regardless of whether it is a 750, 8 Gordini, 12 Gordini, 5 Alpine, 12LE or 5 Turbo. Why focus on one model, in the case of Covert the Gordini, for future promotion. Just look at the current Audi advertising campaign, it focusses on all of the past success by Auto Union, not just on a particular point in time.


Exactly, Renault currently appears to be about creating the future, their products do demonstrate genuine ingenuity and progress (perhaps the Avantime and Vel Satis were/are a bit too far ahead in terms of utility). Renaultsport in my opinion is a suitable designation for the performance arm. But if they decide to do any special versions, being the sporting arm, it should involve more than just paint and stripes. As I have typed before, a Gordini was more than paint and stripes and deserves more than that on the current version!

Wasn't the RenaultSport arm originally commenced in the early/mid 90's as their F1 engine building section, soon after cashing in on their success by using the name on the Spider? It would seem to have made marketing sense if this was the case; I'm just not sure of the chronology.

Stuey

 

[David Cavanagh]

Renaultsport in my opinion is a suitable designation for the performance arm. But if they decide to do any special versions, being the sporting arm, it should involve more than just paint and stripes. As I have typed before, a Gordini was more than paint and stripes and deserves more than that on the current version!

Now I'm confussed, someone please explain.
Sorry to harp on this but when the 12G was released it came in blue paint and white strips and it was considered a true Gordini. Now they took the 12G's running gear and stuck it in the next body shape which was a 2 door coupe, didn't paint it blue and didn't give it white strips and people say it's not a true Gordini, now here's a the confussing part, these are the same people who say it takes more than paint and stripes to make a Gordini


David.

 

[Simon]

Now I'm confussed, someone please explain.
Sorry to harp on this but when the 12G was released it came in blue paint and white strips and it was considered a true Gordini. Now they took the 12G's running gear and stuck it in the next body shape which was a 2 door coupe, didn't paint it blue and didn't give it white strips and people say it's not a true Gordini, now here's a the confussing part, these are the same people who say it takes more than paint and stripes to make a Gordini


David.

I had done thatin a previous reply, enclosed in the quotes below.


"A car with less power than its supposed predecessor could hardly be considered an improvement, let alone inheritor to the Gordini performance mantel."

"The 17TS/G is basically a detuned 12G sourced motor. The 12G puts out 125bhp @ 6250rpm, the 17TS/G 108bhp @ 6000rpm. The source for both of these figures is Renault documentation. This deficit in power further goes to illustrate the difference between a Gordini Renault and a "normal" TS Renault........"

So the Gordini name was attached to an essentially existing non Gordini Renault, being a TS, and the 17 Gordini produced no more power than the TS and less power than the model it was supposedly superseding, the 12 Gordini. I am in no way saying that a 17G is a poor car, just that it really was some sort of cynical marketing grab by Renault.

If the 17 Gordini had been a homologation version of the Group 2 rally 17, producing, say, 140bhp for the road car, then surely that would have deserved the Gordini name over the 17TS. Also it may have been a greater sales success than the actual 17G which petered out very early on in the Phase 2 model change. Although I suspect the reason for discontinuing the 17G was low sales due to the high price on the home and OS markets.

 

[BogMaster]

Cynical grabs for market share are what flogging cars is about.

A 17G is a 17G unpleasant fact of history or not. Who decides what a "G" is? The punters or the producers?

Renault could just as easily have called the TS a "G" from the outset. The TS /G variant is substantially different from the base model we got here and has a clear, if not underpowered, relationship with the 12 "G". I would have thought that on the basis of overall mechanical specs the relationship between the 12 and 17 "G" variants would be enough to justify Renault undertaking the cynical marketing ploy referred to by Simon.

The Clio situation is that the "G" bit has no clear link to any early vehicle other than the nostalgia of blue paint and stripes.

My two bobs worth on this is that in an era of revisiting past glories through retro design and modern engineering that Renault could have done better than to rice up an existing model.

 

[vivid]

I think my Fuego would look shocking in blue and white stripes.

 

[David Cavanagh]

I had done thatin a previous reply, enclosed in the quotes below.


"A car with less power than its supposed predecessor could hardly be considered an improvement, let alone inheritor to the Gordini performance mantel."

Where's it written that a new model must have more power than it's predecessor??
Does the 5 Gordini have more power than the 12G?
We all know the 17 is a detuned version of the 12G, so what, it's still the same basic mechanical package designed by the same people.
That's what I'm trying to get through, if the 12G is worthy of the G badge then so is the 17G. It should never have been called a TS, that was a marketing mistake that they woke up to and gave it it's try identidy (pity it was to late).

David.

 

[Simon]

Where's it written that a new model must have more power than it's predecessor??
Does the 5 Gordini have more power than the 12G?
We all know the 17 is a detuned version of the 12G, so what, it's still the same basic mechanical package designed by the same people.
That's what I'm trying to get through, if the 12G is worthy of the G badge then so is the 17G. It should never have been called a TS, that was a marketing mistake that they woke up to and gave it it's try identidy (pity it was to late).

David.

I would have thought that would be the point of progress when it comes to successive models, especially when it comes to sports versions, that the new model is likely to be better or more powerful than the previous model.

The 5 Gordini was a forced marketing move, and more a model name of convenience being the UK version of the 5 Alpine, as Chrysler UK at that time owned the rights to the Alpine name in the UK via Rootes and Sunbeam. As far as I know now Peugeot PSA still have the UK rights to Alpine.

I still think the point of the Gordini name at that point in time would have been to denote the performance model, and should have been a more powerful 17 rather than a rebadge of the previous TS. The 17 Gordini was identical to the 17TS, and seemingly a sellout of the Gordini name. It really would have been interesting to know the "off the record" view of Amedee himself.

If there was no 17TS, there would have been a slight hole in the Renault lineup, as the TS notation was used on the sportier versions of the plain models, ie 16TS over the 16TL and later with the 12TS over the 12TL. So there had to be a 17TS over the 17TL, not using the Gordini name on a 17 would likely have been the original intention, that being reserved for the high performance 12G. It logically follows that if there was to be a Gordini 17, that it should be better, ie more powerful, than the 17TS in line with the Gordini philosophy. It was not as if Renault were creating a brand of Gordini in the same way as there are now Renaultsport versions of the Clio and Megane.

Anyway to wind up, history has shown which Gordini models are the more coveted, the 8G and 12G seem quite popular. However the 17G, despite being the much rarer car than either the 8G or 12G, with in the order of 1600 odd Gordini R1317's produced, tends to be forgotten or stripped and cut up to be used as the donor car for five speed gearboxes and disc rear ends on other models. Fortunately now that trend seems to be slowing if not having stopped already.

Gordini will always be a part of Renault heritage. But it is best remembered as a performance enhancement rather than a fashion accessory of blue paint and stripes.

 

[Reno17]

BRAVO BRAVO

 

[Europa]

Where's it written that a new model must have more power than it's predecessor??
Does the 5 Gordini have more power than the 12G?

No, but it has more power than a R5TS. Does your argument extend to the Renault 5 range? In your opinion, should the R5TS never have been created?

That range, in 1981, was R5, R5TL, R5GTL, R5TS, R5 Gordini.

We all know the 17 is a detuned version of the 12G, so what, it's still the same basic mechanical package designed by the same people.

The "same basic mechanical package designed by the same people" was also used in the R17TL. You could even say the R16 fits this loose description. Same series engine, front wheel drive, longitudinal engine and gearbox configuration.

That's what I'm trying to get through, if the 12G is worthy of the G badge then so is the 17G. It should never have been called a TS, that was a marketing mistake that they woke up to and gave it it's try identidy (pity it was to late).

But it's NOT THE SAME CAR! In fact, wouldn't you think the R17 Gordini, being the top specification "Sports Coupe", should actually be the most powerful? Or, at the very least, just as powerful as the R12 Gordini? It doesn't even get the extra gauges, the quicker steering rack or the lightened body. It hardly fits the Gordini ethos!

 

[David Cavanagh]

No, but it has more power than a R5TS. Does your argument extend to the Renault 5 range? In your opinion, should the R5TS never have been created?

That range, in 1981, was R5, R5TL, R5GTL, R5TS, R5 Gordini


Don't start bringing the 5 into it, all I'm saying is that according to Simons argument the 5G should not have been created because it's slower than the 12G, but it was created and I hear it was a damn good car and it had nothing to do with Amedee. I mean the 12 Alpine had nothing to do with Jean Redele either but they couldn't use the Gordini name so they used Alpine, it simply means the performance version of that model. If I won Tattslotto I'd have a collection of Gordini's, all fully restored starting from the Dauphine to the 5 and I'd be proud of the lot of them. What I'm saying is rightly or wrongly there Gordini's and as a Gordini enthusiast I'd be proud to own any of them, I have a poster of the Renault Turbo F1 car from the late 70's and the only reason I have it is because written across the rocker covers of the V6 turbo engine are the words RENAULT GORDINI and if I had a choice I'd rather buy a Clio badged Gordini instead of Sport.

David.

 

[Simon]

Don't start bringing the 5 into it, all I'm saying is that according to Simons argument the 5G should not have been created because it's slower than the 12G, but it was created and I hear it was a damn good car and it had nothing to do with Amedee.

My point with the 5 Alpine/Gordini was made earlier, the Gordini name being one of convenience for the UK market. Like the 17G, nothing wrong with the car, but probably another misuse of the Gordini name in the context of the previous models.

Now, if at that time they had commenced a Gordini line of performance models, say 5 Gordini, 140bhp 17G, 18 Gordini etc etc, and that line had continued up to the present day, in effect Gordini replacing Renaultsport, there would have been a lineage and heritage of the name Gordini through the various models, all being performance versions of the standard cars. The fact that the latest Clio Gordini is just a paint job with stripes just seems an insult to the engineering prowess of Amedee himself. Not all Renault Gordini's were produced in blue with white stripes, but each successive Renault Gordini model enhanced under the direction of Amedee Gordini himself was a notch up from the standard model in terms of performance and power.

I'd have a collection of Gordini's, all fully restored starting from the Dauphine to the 5 and I'd be proud of the lot of them. What I'm saying is rightly or wrongly there Gordini's and as a Gordini enthusiast I'd be proud to own any of them, I have a poster of the Renault Turbo F1 car from the late 70's and the only reason I have it is because written across the rocker covers of the V6 turbo engine are the words RENAULT GORDINI and if I had a choice I'd rather buy a Clio badged Gordini instead of Sport.

David.

That does sound like a nice collection!

Just thinking though, I wonder if there are any Brock fans who are as dedicated to their hero, who have a collection of a Brock Commodore, Brock Lada and a Brock Falcon, I don't think there was a Brock BMW, but someone could surprise me.

 

[David Cavanagh]

Just thinking though, I wonder if there are any Brock fans who are as dedicated to their hero, who have a collection of a Brock Commodore, Brock Lada and a Brock Falcon, I don't think there was a Brock BMW, but someone could surprise me.

Believe it or not I know someone with a Brock collection, they have a very original VB or VC Commodore (what ever the first one was, I'm not up there models) in mint cond and very low km, they also own a Brock Lada, yes they do, I don't think there game to drive it in case it breaks but they do own it. They don't have a Brock Falcon but I think that's more because they can't find one rather than they don't want one and I have no idea what Brock BMW is.

As for Gordini, this is my opinion only and no piont arguing because no one will change my opinion but I believe some 25 years ago Renault delivered the ultimate insute to Gordini and it had nothing to do with model performance.
Back in the fifties Gordini built performance versions of mundane Renault sedans, built a great reputation and had an image like Cooper, Shelby maybe even Brock. When Gordini died Renault bought the name and took over the company, Gordini's lifes work was in that company and his name meant something but what did Renault do, they droped the Gordini name and it became Renault Sport, I think that was the biggest insult they could ever do to such a legend (almost as bad as putting a FIAT badge on a Ferrari). I believe the Sport name should never have happened and the Gordini name become the performance version of all the models, Fuego turbo should have been Fuego Gordini for example, 18 turbo,11 turbo, 5 turbo, should all have used the Gordini name.
Under this rule the Clio Sport should be the Clio Gordini, Gordini not being superior to the Sport but instead of the Sport. The Sport is head and shoulders above the next version down in the Clio line up so it deserves the name, the colour sheme is just a way of making it recognisable. Maybe someone at Renault agrees with me and has decided that it's better to be late than never.
When the Clio Sport was released so many people said to me that it's like Gordini all over again, all I'm saying is I agree so lets call it Gordini.
My opinion and I'm sticking to it.

David.

 

[Simon]

As for Gordini, this is my opinion only and no piont arguing because no one will change my opinion but I believe some 25 years ago Renault delivered the ultimate insute to Gordini and it had nothing to do with model performance.
Back in the fifties Gordini built performance versions of mundane Renault sedans, built a great reputation and had an image like Cooper, Shelby maybe even Brock. When Gordini died Renault bought the name and took over the company, Gordini's lifes work was in that company and his name meant something but what did Renault do, they droped the Gordini name and it became Renault Sport, I think that was the biggest insult they could ever do to such a legend (almost as bad as putting a FIAT badge on a Ferrari).
David.

OK, you are entitled to your opinion.

Let's flesh a few things out here. Gordini probably was more like Jack Brabham (own car own team) or Eddie Jordan (F1 team that just never quite makes it). Also his pre Renault years were spent modifying Fiats and Simca's (rather than Renaults), creating his own cylinder heads, all with a great deal of success. Later on he created his own cars with a full range of engines (4,6 and 8) but, like Eddie Jordan, the L'equipe Gordini never quite made it despite nurturing a lot of talented F1 drivers. In 1957 the money dried up with competition from the more well known manufacturers such as Ferrari, Jag, Aston, Maserati etc. and L'Equipe Gordini was no more.

Through a meeting with Pierre Dreyfus, a few designs were proposed for a Dauphine Gordini, culminating with a special head with angled valves and alloy rocker cover on the R1091 Gordini producing 37bhp and first shown in 1957. Up to that time most of the competition victories for Renault were in Renault (not Gordini) modified 4CV's and Dauphines. Later for 1960 the special head was replaced with a modified "standard" Dauphine head plus other internal mods, and pressed metal rocker cover with G mark and producing 40bhp. Then things get tricky, even then the Dauphine G was still not enough to compete with the best in its class, and the R1093 Dauphine Speciale was produced with apparently no input from Gordini, but using many proprietory Autobleu accessories plus mods to produce 55bhp.

I've read that the Geoghegan brothers imported a 1093 to AUS, but I presume not much exists besides a few odd 1093 parts which seem to have turned up. Apparently because the car was not a standard production model in Australia it wasn't eligible for any production car classes, but if someone knows more about it I'd love to know. Anyway that is probably a diversion from the Gordini line. The rest of the story I guess most people know from there, although judging by the reaction at the Adelaide Brunch turnout Gordini is now a forgotten name amongst young Peugeot fans .

So it is my opinion that the ultimate insult to Gordini would have been the 17 Gordini where his name was placed on a totally mechanically unmodified 17TS. Probably akin to David's analogy of placing a Fiat badge on a Ferrari .

Funny David should also mention Cooper, because there was also the Dauphine Cooper, which was a Dauphine with a John Cooper installed Coventry Climax motor in the rear. Then a Mini arrived in his workshop........Missed opportunity for Renault or what?? Just imagine a Renault Clio Cooper Works!!

 

[Stuey]

Hmmmm...I've had limited time on the old AF in the last two weeks, but this thread almost deserves 'sticky' status, it contains so much good historical info!

Good one.

Stuey

 

[R17G]

Simon,

What do you have in the garage?

 

[Simon]

Simon,

What do you have in the garage?

That could be considered a highly personal question. Currently an appliance white R4, various bottles of oil, tools, various greasy parts, an old bench, some R4 & 12 wheels and tyres, lawnmower, hedge clippers, oh and a couple of 17G wheels and tyres SNAP!