Does anyone know a bit about car audio? Well I am putting in a cd setup, maybe with 2x "4 inch Response Mid/Bass 3/4 inch titanium dome tweeter" speakers in the front, in the factory holes, plus "6.5 inch woofer and 1 inch titanium dine tweeter" in the parcel shelf factory holes in the rear, (p. 234 of the Jaycar catalogue) with an Alpine 50x4 head unit. No amp, stacker or subs. Can anyone tell me whether these are like the right speakers for this sorta setup? Thanks.
car audio
- Thread starter nchandler
- Start date
Hi Nick, I reckon you'll be surprised at how good such a simple set up will sound. The speakers will be fine, although it's usually a good idea to reinforce the parcel shelf with a bit of MDF underneath if you can be bothered. In fact, the parcel shelf speakers don't usually sound as good as they can because of the size of the boot area. The Responses give great bass for their size, and really clear highs, and you should be able to upgrade with an amp and subwoofer later if you want, without ditching the Responses because you're starting out with quality gear.
I'm sure our resident ICE expert Phasis will have more to add...
Cheers
Stuey
I'm sure our resident ICE expert Phasis will have more to add...
Cheers
Stuey
Well, sounds like you are picking the right brands. Have had ALPINE/SONY/PIONEER decks and I know that "//////ALPINE" are the best for mainstream models. It is worth the extra. My parents live on a dirt road which gets incredibly corrugated that it is almost as bad as Sydney's roads........Anyway, enough of sarcasm. In the 205, the Sony ALWAYS skipped and I turned it off in disgust most times. Then, I bought the Alpine deck and have never been happier. It is my 3rd one. On finally putting one the Mi16, the standard speaker set-up was soooooooooo much better just be changing the deck. Am tempted to change the rear speakers for some 6.5' 3 ways but the rear shelf has purpose built speaker baskets that seem daunting to change.
Also, I have read many "speaker comparo's" and those JAYCAR 2 way 4' are the way to go. You should get the ones with directional tweeters.
Pioneers TS-E series are the best 'combined' (can't think of the correct term - opposite of spits!) speakers. Go for 2-ways at the rear otherwise you will have way too much treble and it will drown out the lower frequencies. Just my preference but I have experimented with most of my cars and mates for a good setup. Suprisingly, a mate had a 91 Celica which he used the standard rear speakers that are facing foward beside the passenger seats. This meant no treble in the rear, 12" sealed box and 5" Signat splits up front. Most pure setup - not too boomy or peaky.
It can get MIGHTY expensive too but you only live once! I still go to bed at night hearing that high pitch scream in my ears.........things you do!
BTW; If you want to buy any gear, I have a setup that I do not want to put in the Mi16. I am too careful with this car now as it is in such good condition. Email me @ StuartGibbs@hotmail.com
if you want details. Am in Sydney so no day trips to give you gear are in order sorry!
Good luck and have fun in the 626. Keep saving for the GTi, you WILL LOVE IT
Stu G.
Also, I have read many "speaker comparo's" and those JAYCAR 2 way 4' are the way to go. You should get the ones with directional tweeters.
Pioneers TS-E series are the best 'combined' (can't think of the correct term - opposite of spits!) speakers. Go for 2-ways at the rear otherwise you will have way too much treble and it will drown out the lower frequencies. Just my preference but I have experimented with most of my cars and mates for a good setup. Suprisingly, a mate had a 91 Celica which he used the standard rear speakers that are facing foward beside the passenger seats. This meant no treble in the rear, 12" sealed box and 5" Signat splits up front. Most pure setup - not too boomy or peaky.
It can get MIGHTY expensive too but you only live once! I still go to bed at night hearing that high pitch scream in my ears.........things you do!
BTW; If you want to buy any gear, I have a setup that I do not want to put in the Mi16. I am too careful with this car now as it is in such good condition. Email me @ StuartGibbs@hotmail.com
if you want details. Am in Sydney so no day trips to give you gear are in order sorry!
Good luck and have fun in the 626. Keep saving for the GTi, you WILL LOVE IT
Stu G.
If you can, try get yourself an amp, i had the 4" response speakers and they sounded good from the deck, but even better from an amp.
I remember a review saying they're most suited to an amp also, but i'm sure it will still do the job from the deck. What i did dislike about these speakers is that trebble is very piercing, had to turn it down. The review also made this comment as well
But your setup sounds good, happy listening!
I remember a review saying they're most suited to an amp also, but i'm sure it will still do the job from the deck. What i did dislike about these speakers is that trebble is very piercing, had to turn it down. The review also made this comment as well
But your setup sounds good, happy listening!
righto, i have changed my mind a bit, to save some $$$$$.
in the back parcel shelf bit
<a href="http://www.car.pioneeraus.com.au/catalogue_01-02/product_speakers/ts-a1695/product_ts-a1695.html" target="_blank">http://www.car.pioneeraus.com.au/catalogue_01-02/product_speakers/ts-a1695/product_ts-a1695.html</a>
2 x 6 inch pioneers with horn tweeters
in the front the response 4 inch adjustable tweeters
head unit is a 50x4 pioneer. all comes to about $600 plus 60 for someone to install the headunit, an i'll stick the speakers in myself. i changed my mind in the pioneer shop today after hearing that unit with the horn tweeters.
in the back parcel shelf bit
<a href="http://www.car.pioneeraus.com.au/catalogue_01-02/product_speakers/ts-a1695/product_ts-a1695.html" target="_blank">http://www.car.pioneeraus.com.au/catalogue_01-02/product_speakers/ts-a1695/product_ts-a1695.html</a>
2 x 6 inch pioneers with horn tweeters
in the front the response 4 inch adjustable tweeters
head unit is a 50x4 pioneer. all comes to about $600 plus 60 for someone to install the headunit, an i'll stick the speakers in myself. i changed my mind in the pioneer shop today after hearing that unit with the horn tweeters.
The 4" 2 ways are a good speaker, however they do not have a very good bass response seeing as they are only 4" in size. I had used them in my last system to great effect, however I had a set of 6" carbon fiber mid-basses so in effect it was a 3way setup up the front. If these are these only sizes you can fit in the front (ie. stock locations) then they are definetly the way to go. Good quality speakers, crossovers and if one fails u can always just replace the one rather than buying a new set.
I have th 6" in the back of my car at the moment, however they are not running as they considerably reduce the quality of the JL splits, and ANY speakers running off the head unit(which they are) will detract from the headunits ability to drive the RCA pre-outs. A head units powersupply cannot cope with running RCA AND speakers without some loss of RCA signal quality.
Im not sure if you have a sedan or hatch, but a sedan parcel shelf will sound better than a hatch parcel shelf cause the boot is better sealed and parcel shelf more sturdier. Plus u can add strendthening underneath it without worrying about the support of the weight.
Alpine headunits are very good, however you pay for it and can get the same if not more features in other brands like Pioneer. Granted, the Alpines look the goods against others, but its a personal choice. You can get excellent units for $400 in Pioneer, JVC, and Kenwood, but U would be very hard pressed getting the same features in an Alpine unit for that price. The companies have digressed in market feilds in recent years.
However if you know you will not be using the features of the other units, like Front Image Enhancer, Dual RCA pre-outs, (detachable face if the alpine doesnt already have one) 3 band EQ, then all the assorted sound enhancers and radio du-dars, then the Apline is a good choice.
In all, its a perfectly fine system, however just dont expect deep bass or high volumes, but for $600 you will get a nice and clear sounding system. Now just save up another $400 odd and get a small 2x30w bridgeable amp and 10" sub in a sealed box and u'll be set.
I have th 6" in the back of my car at the moment, however they are not running as they considerably reduce the quality of the JL splits, and ANY speakers running off the head unit(which they are) will detract from the headunits ability to drive the RCA pre-outs. A head units powersupply cannot cope with running RCA AND speakers without some loss of RCA signal quality.
Im not sure if you have a sedan or hatch, but a sedan parcel shelf will sound better than a hatch parcel shelf cause the boot is better sealed and parcel shelf more sturdier. Plus u can add strendthening underneath it without worrying about the support of the weight.
Alpine headunits are very good, however you pay for it and can get the same if not more features in other brands like Pioneer. Granted, the Alpines look the goods against others, but its a personal choice. You can get excellent units for $400 in Pioneer, JVC, and Kenwood, but U would be very hard pressed getting the same features in an Alpine unit for that price. The companies have digressed in market feilds in recent years.
However if you know you will not be using the features of the other units, like Front Image Enhancer, Dual RCA pre-outs, (detachable face if the alpine doesnt already have one) 3 band EQ, then all the assorted sound enhancers and radio du-dars, then the Apline is a good choice.
In all, its a perfectly fine system, however just dont expect deep bass or high volumes, but for $600 you will get a nice and clear sounding system. Now just save up another $400 odd and get a small 2x30w bridgeable amp and 10" sub in a sealed box and u'll be set.
Phasis (or should I say ICEman),
What's the best way of running a small sub from a head unit with 4 high level (speaker) outputs only? Do you need to use a high to low level converter of some sort, and an appropriate amp?
Cheers
Stuey
What's the best way of running a small sub from a head unit with 4 high level (speaker) outputs only? Do you need to use a high to low level converter of some sort, and an appropriate amp?
Cheers
Stuey
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Fellow Frogger
Stuey,
mate, did you say run a subbie from a headunit?? Nah that's not possible, it's enough effort for a headunit to run 4small speakers. I know must new head units say 4x50watts, or some crap like that, but in reality I'd be surprised if any of them are more than about 8watts per channel rms.
Subbies are power hungry little mongrels, and really want there own dedicated amp. You really need to buy an amp that will effortlessly run the sub. The quickest way to burn out a subbie is to run it on to little power. The output from the amp acualy tends to just push the sub right out & hold it there if it's overdriven to much (which will burn the subbie out in no time). Most cheap amps are switchable & will run a subbie ok.
I've got a 4x50rms JVC amp, I don't think much of it, it runs the main speakers ok(very efficient alpine DDrive splits & coaxs) *OR* just the 10" subbie. It refuses to run both, even though it's supposedly 200watts rms all up
I really need to get another amp for the subbie & hook the speakers back to the existing amp. The stereo sounds MUCH clearer running through an amp.
seeya,
Shane L.
mate, did you say run a subbie from a headunit?? Nah that's not possible, it's enough effort for a headunit to run 4small speakers. I know must new head units say 4x50watts, or some crap like that, but in reality I'd be surprised if any of them are more than about 8watts per channel rms.
Subbies are power hungry little mongrels, and really want there own dedicated amp. You really need to buy an amp that will effortlessly run the sub. The quickest way to burn out a subbie is to run it on to little power. The output from the amp acualy tends to just push the sub right out & hold it there if it's overdriven to much (which will burn the subbie out in no time). Most cheap amps are switchable & will run a subbie ok.
I've got a 4x50rms JVC amp, I don't think much of it, it runs the main speakers ok(very efficient alpine DDrive splits & coaxs) *OR* just the 10" subbie. It refuses to run both, even though it's supposedly 200watts rms all up
I really need to get another amp for the subbie & hook the speakers back to the existing amp. The stereo sounds MUCH clearer running through an amp.
seeya,
Shane L.
Shane,
Didn't explain myself too well, did I? Yeah, I know I would need an amp, but what's the simplest way to achieve this? In other words, what are the options for driving 4 speakers and a sub - do they all need to go through a separate amp, or is there some way to drive the speakers through the head unit and take an output for the sub's amp from the 4 high level outputs? Phew...I think that's clear!
Thanks.
Stuey
Didn't explain myself too well, did I? Yeah, I know I would need an amp, but what's the simplest way to achieve this? In other words, what are the options for driving 4 speakers and a sub - do they all need to go through a separate amp, or is there some way to drive the speakers through the head unit and take an output for the sub's amp from the 4 high level outputs? Phew...I think that's clear!
Thanks.
Stuey
Here's a combination i use in my car, i have the front speakers running off the head unit, the back speakers running off the amp (via rca output from deck) which also powers a sub(the amp of course). I hardly put the sub in the car, its boxed and it moves around too much when taking corners.
what sort of car did u end up with Nick...did u get the Mi16 ?
Ben
Ben
Sorry for the delay getting back to this thread...
It is definetly not impossible to run subwoofers (please no subbies
) from a headunit, however its not a good practice. There are several ways to do it.
Firstly, get a new headunit with a MOSFET (metal oxide semiconducting field effect transistor) (dont that just rollllll off your tounge) internal amplifier. The higher end Pioneers have them and other brands are also starting to include them. The benefit of MOSFET amps is that they are much better at dissipating heat and dealing with higher outputs and lower resistances. You are able to bridge a 4x50w PMPO MOSFET headunit to get "about" 40w RMS into one mono channel. This is ample for a modest system with a 6" or 8" sub. The high end units also have a low-pass (approx 120HZ) filter for these bridged channels so you dont need passive crossovers.
Secondly, you can use passive crossovers to split the signal between the front mid-tweeters and, say, 2x6" mid-bass (jaycar 6" woofers are perfect) in a nice efficient ported box in the boot. I have a temporary setup at the moment until I get my JL Audio 10". I am using a spare 6" carbon fiber Jaycar woofer (which used to be my mid-bass) running off a bridged 4x30w amp. The sub is getting at most about 80w, yet it goes very hard for such a tiny speaker.
One problem you will run into with this setup is that the woofers will be playing stereo, something you dont want especially if they are sharing an enclosure.
You could get really tricky and mix the two, and at the same time aleviate the probel above by bridging front and rear lefts and front and rear rights of a MOSFET amp, running front speakers off these and then combining both bridged left and right into 2 x 4ohm speakers in series. But by this stage you are better off just getting your self an amp.
If you dont get a MOSFET amp, I would probably recomend that you do try to save up for a small bridgable amp and run 1 sub, however if you really do not want the hassle, you have to make yourself up some 100hz crossovers. However to get any real effective use out of them, you will need to make up 12db/oct. onces which have a capacitor and coil for each of the 4 speakers that you will be crossing over. You have to also put a high pass crossover on the alternative speaker to the sub.
This means you will have to buy 4 capacitors, (about $12 each) and 4 inductor coils, (about $14 each). Then the trouble to wire them up, and its really starting not to be worth it. Add to this the cost of 2 woofers, and you are better off buying a modest sized mp and a single 8" sub and you will have a better result.
Hope this helps.
It is definetly not impossible to run subwoofers (please no subbies
) from a headunit, however its not a good practice. There are several ways to do it. Firstly, get a new headunit with a MOSFET (metal oxide semiconducting field effect transistor) (dont that just rollllll off your tounge) internal amplifier. The higher end Pioneers have them and other brands are also starting to include them. The benefit of MOSFET amps is that they are much better at dissipating heat and dealing with higher outputs and lower resistances. You are able to bridge a 4x50w PMPO MOSFET headunit to get "about" 40w RMS into one mono channel. This is ample for a modest system with a 6" or 8" sub. The high end units also have a low-pass (approx 120HZ) filter for these bridged channels so you dont need passive crossovers.
Secondly, you can use passive crossovers to split the signal between the front mid-tweeters and, say, 2x6" mid-bass (jaycar 6" woofers are perfect) in a nice efficient ported box in the boot. I have a temporary setup at the moment until I get my JL Audio 10". I am using a spare 6" carbon fiber Jaycar woofer (which used to be my mid-bass) running off a bridged 4x30w amp. The sub is getting at most about 80w, yet it goes very hard for such a tiny speaker.
One problem you will run into with this setup is that the woofers will be playing stereo, something you dont want especially if they are sharing an enclosure.
You could get really tricky and mix the two, and at the same time aleviate the probel above by bridging front and rear lefts and front and rear rights of a MOSFET amp, running front speakers off these and then combining both bridged left and right into 2 x 4ohm speakers in series. But by this stage you are better off just getting your self an amp.
If you dont get a MOSFET amp, I would probably recomend that you do try to save up for a small bridgable amp and run 1 sub, however if you really do not want the hassle, you have to make yourself up some 100hz crossovers. However to get any real effective use out of them, you will need to make up 12db/oct. onces which have a capacitor and coil for each of the 4 speakers that you will be crossing over. You have to also put a high pass crossover on the alternative speaker to the sub.
This means you will have to buy 4 capacitors, (about $12 each) and 4 inductor coils, (about $14 each). Then the trouble to wire them up, and its really starting not to be worth it. Add to this the cost of 2 woofers, and you are better off buying a modest sized mp and a single 8" sub and you will have a better result.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Phasis, very informative as usual.
Stuey
Stuey
While on the topic of car audio...
I also know bugger all about audio systems for cars, which is probably why mine sounds a touch cruddy: about a year ago I bought a Clarion head unit and a 6 disc cd changer. Kept the original speakers in the car which sounded crap, so went back to the car audio shoppe and bought 4inch 90w kenwoods for the front and 6inch 120w JBL's for the rear. The problem I am having is they too start crapping themselves when you turn the volume past half, or when I play a CD with a lot of bass. My original thought was that I had bought a dud set of speakers, but after reading your posts thought that perhaps the amplifier wasn't keeping up with the load, given it's only a 45wx4? ...so what should I do to cure my loudness/bass problem? Buy new speakers capeable of handling the bass? Buy an amp to cope with the load? Buy a subwoofer? Buy a new amp and speakers? Give up and deal with the fact that I will NEVER be able to turn the stereo up loud?
I also know bugger all about audio systems for cars, which is probably why mine sounds a touch cruddy: about a year ago I bought a Clarion head unit and a 6 disc cd changer. Kept the original speakers in the car which sounded crap, so went back to the car audio shoppe and bought 4inch 90w kenwoods for the front and 6inch 120w JBL's for the rear. The problem I am having is they too start crapping themselves when you turn the volume past half, or when I play a CD with a lot of bass. My original thought was that I had bought a dud set of speakers, but after reading your posts thought that perhaps the amplifier wasn't keeping up with the load, given it's only a 45wx4? ...so what should I do to cure my loudness/bass problem? Buy new speakers capeable of handling the bass? Buy an amp to cope with the load? Buy a subwoofer? Buy a new amp and speakers? Give up and deal with the fact that I will NEVER be able to turn the stereo up loud?
Seems like you may not have enough power for the speakers. Then again it depends on the sensitivity of your speakers. Some speakers don't get up & boogy until they have their nominal input power applied.
You might want to check the polarity on your speaker wires too. If all your speakers aren't pos to pos, negt to neg, they will be out of phase & one channel will feed the other. This robs your bass bad
Your speaker brand choice seems quite OK.
You might want to check the polarity on your speaker wires too. If all your speakers aren't pos to pos, negt to neg, they will be out of phase & one channel will feed the other. This robs your bass bad
Your speaker brand choice seems quite OK.
Firstly, pretty much all speaker and headunit manufactures quote PMPO (peak music power output) wattages on their equipment, especially the boxes. This is an practice I still dont understand because it only reflect the power that can be put out/in to a component for a split second, and usually only a one frequency while holding at 30deg to the sun on the easter long weekend.
You should only be looking at the RMS (root mean square) rating. 45x5 will be 'around 15-18w RMS, while 120w for a 6" speaker will be 'about 50-60w RMS. Now with a headunit, you have features like bass boost and loud button, god forbid, as a means to change the volume of a frequency relative to the next. You are not able to output more power from your headunit if you use the bass boost. What you are actually doing is this; for a given volume, say 25/50, you may put out 10w RMS at 100Hz with the equaliser flat, If you add bass boost, say 3db@100hz which is not much, you are asking the headunit to supply 20w@100hz, clearly above the maximum RMS value. So what does the amplifer do, it clips the signal. Thing of a wave form, now imagine a horizontal line at the top and bottom which represent the maximum output.As you increase the volume, the wave gets higher until finally it hits the lines at the top and bottom. The wave will continue in hight, however the tops and bottoms of the waves get clipped off. This is what is known as clipping and is very bad for your speaker. Instead of being a nice linear sign wave, it turns into a square AC wave. if you clip an amp enough, you can blow a 200w sub with a 20w RMS amp.
This is why your speakers will probably be sounding poor, because you are probably giving them too much bass. Its not the speakers that are the problem, its the amp in the headunit. Also, 4" drivers are not meant to produce any frequencies of any reasonable frequency below 120hz.
Hope this helps and if i'm going into too much detail please tell me cause typing aint my bag baby
You should only be looking at the RMS (root mean square) rating. 45x5 will be 'around 15-18w RMS, while 120w for a 6" speaker will be 'about 50-60w RMS. Now with a headunit, you have features like bass boost and loud button, god forbid, as a means to change the volume of a frequency relative to the next. You are not able to output more power from your headunit if you use the bass boost. What you are actually doing is this; for a given volume, say 25/50, you may put out 10w RMS at 100Hz with the equaliser flat, If you add bass boost, say 3db@100hz which is not much, you are asking the headunit to supply 20w@100hz, clearly above the maximum RMS value. So what does the amplifer do, it clips the signal. Thing of a wave form, now imagine a horizontal line at the top and bottom which represent the maximum output.As you increase the volume, the wave gets higher until finally it hits the lines at the top and bottom. The wave will continue in hight, however the tops and bottoms of the waves get clipped off. This is what is known as clipping and is very bad for your speaker. Instead of being a nice linear sign wave, it turns into a square AC wave. if you clip an amp enough, you can blow a 200w sub with a 20w RMS amp.
This is why your speakers will probably be sounding poor, because you are probably giving them too much bass. Its not the speakers that are the problem, its the amp in the headunit. Also, 4" drivers are not meant to produce any frequencies of any reasonable frequency below 120hz.
Hope this helps and if i'm going into too much detail please tell me cause typing aint my bag baby
...so the bottom line is buy a new amp, and possibly do away with the 4inch speakers in the front?
shall also check the polarity on the speaker wires too.
thanks
shall also check the polarity on the speaker wires too.
thanks
Liam, if you are not happy with the way it sounds, yes, buy an external amp for the rear speakers and run the front speakers off the headunit. If you want to get the most out of all speakers, you will need to fade the headunit to the rear speakers, which will also fade to the RCA's running to the amp, and fafde away from the front speakers. This way you are giving the front speakers less volume.
Brad
Brad
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Hi Guys,
if you buy a decent 4channel amp, I wouldn't run anything off the headunit. You'll lose a lot of clarity. On the Amp you will be able to ajdust the gain of the front & rear speakers seperatly, so don't worry about that...
Careful when you buy the amp that the power figure quoted ir 'rms' not peak. If the amps a real cheapo, and appears to have a huge power figure, you can bet there quoting PMPO (peak music power). It'll probably say 4x100watts in huge lettering across the box, then in tiny font on the back 4x25watts rms...
seeya,
Shane L.
if you buy a decent 4channel amp, I wouldn't run anything off the headunit. You'll lose a lot of clarity. On the Amp you will be able to ajdust the gain of the front & rear speakers seperatly, so don't worry about that...
Careful when you buy the amp that the power figure quoted ir 'rms' not peak. If the amps a real cheapo, and appears to have a huge power figure, you can bet there quoting PMPO (peak music power). It'll probably say 4x100watts in huge lettering across the box, then in tiny font on the back 4x25watts rms...
seeya,
Shane L.