C5 Series 1 Won't Run

J

JAJEA

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Yes, that C5 is still around and has been very useful to family members despite that AL4 gearbox that others had trouble with - well over the 300K kms now.
Not sure for how long though as it it now parked in a shopping centre car park unable to move.
As it fires (it is the 2l diesel) but does not run, I'll be checking the fuel pump today. What fuel pressure should the pump be delivering to the motor?
Thanks in anticipation.
John
 
Hi John
What I've got to offer is not a diagnosis, but a diagnostic 'tool' to help narrow down the search. I will try and lay it out clearly and logically, as a new member with an identical-sounding problem (Peugeot not Citroen) was unable to understand my suggestion, and accused me of thread hijacking.

1. In the days of mechanical fuel pumps, diesel engines didn't have electrical problems (apart from glow plugs). However with the advent of the HDi and electronically controlled injection, it is helpful to be able to quickly eliminate at least some possible electrical issues, of which there are potentially many!

2. When an engine starts, the alternator does not start pushing out 14+V instantaneously - for several seconds the ECU and all the electrical stuff must cope with battery voltage alone.

3. With age, resistance in various electrical wires and connectors rises, so the voltage reaching the ECU is lower. In cold conditions NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE BATTERY IS, the voltage may drop (due to high resistance) to a point where the fuel supply is cut off. Why it fires at all I'll leave it to the experts to explain.

4. To test for this issue, you need to be able to supply a higher voltage until the alternator kicks in. A jump start pack won't do this - it is still only suppling 12V. The quickest & easiest way I know is to connect the battery to another vehicle using good quality jumper leads. To get the required higher voltage, the other vehicle must be running and supplying 14+V to it's battery. You probably won't get 14V through the jumper leads, but even 13V is enough.

5. I stumbled on this trying to understand why my son's Pug 307 HDi had become hard/impossible to start. Symptoms as you describe - fires but won't run. There were no relevant codes stored. We haven't totally cured the 307 yet, but cleaning all the earth points we could find definitely helped. It may be as basic as a battery terminal...

Hope this helps
Cheers

Alec
 
Check the electrical supply at the engine slave/fuse box is not burnt. Have you added a second wire to the pump supply?

To check the pump operation and delivery pressure see the diagnostic pages here John:

C5 power issue yet again or still

You might also want to lookout the throttle position sensor... i am having a few similar dramas, tho' nowhere near as bad. One computer interrogation stated that the throttle sensor was earthing out. This results in hijacking the throttle and no power for the first 50 metres or so... then...
www.aussiefrogs.com
 
Thanks Alec, I realised after posting that as it's a diesel - there is no fuel pump per se in the tank.
So, I've got jumper leads made from welding cables when rallying a Simca (25 amp generator? [if not 25, close to it if not lower]) and jumper leads often used as Cibie lights used battery power more often than the generator power.
I'll use those and see how I go AFTER pressurising the fuel rail manually.
Once again thanks for that advise / hint.
John
 
Mk 1 has the in tank pump, prime by turning ignition to on so you can hear the pump under rear right seat, do this about 20 times. I've only had to do this once diesel ran dry in the tank or when replacing the fuel filter.

Never had start not run on Carlo5 so this is all I can offer.
 
Check your fuse box. These are notorious for failing. So much so one of the CCCNSW members repairs them The relays die and one if for the fuel pump.
 
David S said:
Check the electrical supply at the engine slave/fuse box is not burnt. Have you added a second wire to the pump supply?

To check the pump operation and delivery pressure see the diagnostic pages here John:

C5 power issue yet again or still

You might also want to lookout the throttle position sensor... i am having a few similar dramas, tho' nowhere near as bad. One computer interrogation stated that the throttle sensor was earthing out. This results in hijacking the throttle and no power for the first 50 metres or so... then...
www.aussiefrogs.com
Click to expand...
Thanks David, I'll check out what I can not having that vacuum pump tester at my disposal.
John
 
Andrew D said:
Check your fuse box. These are notorious for failing. So much so one of the CCCNSW members repairs them The relays die and one if for the fuel pump.
Click to expand...
Thanks Andrew, I've been advised and hence I don't believe that this C5 has a fuel pump in the tank.
Nevertheless, I'd appreciate any specific advice at which fuse box there maybe problems.
John
 
The vac tester probably isn't the place to start here. Your C5 is an early HDi 01-04 yes? That does have an electric pre-pump in the tank per the info at the link I gave earlier. It needs to produce 0.8Bar and the supply at the engine fuse box is a common fault. You might add a secondary power supply wire per the picture posted here ...

HDI C5 wont start

I have a 2004 HDI Estate it ran perfectly yesterday as I went to family for Christmas. This morning I went to start it would not go it only ran for a few seconds even if i try to rev it it only runs for a few seconds anybody have any ideas. as it gave me no problem at all until this morning it...
www.aussiefrogs.com
 
dimistyle said:
Mk 1 has the in tank pump, prime by turning ignition to on so you can hear the pump under rear right seat, do this about 20 times. I've only had to do this once diesel ran dry in the tank or when replacing the fuel filter.

Never had start not run on Carlo5 so this is all I can offer.
Click to expand...
Dimistyle, notwithstanding that I've been advised that this C5 does not have an electric tank pump, I've tried switching "ignition per se on and off" with no success.
Believe it or not, we are quite happy that it has left us in this predicament because C5 was borrowed by musician son and his family for a gig in Adelaide and it behaved faultlessly. The load of musical gear that it carried was humongous. It gets home, goes around the corner to Aldi and there it stays. Amazing. Quite happy that it did not happen in or on the way to or on the way back from Adelaide.
John
 
JAJEA said:
Dimistyle, notwithstanding that I've been advised that this C5 does not have an electric tank pump, I've tried switching "ignition per se on and off" with no success.
Believe it or not, we are quite happy that it has left us in this predicament because C5 was borrowed by musician son and his family for a gig in Adelaide and it behaved faultlessly. The load of musical gear that it carried was humongous. It gets home, goes around the corner to Aldi and there it stays. Amazing. Quite happy that it did not happen in or on the way to or on the way back from Adelaide.
John
Click to expand...
I had 2 (two!!) Peugeot starter motors fail last year - both at home! How does that happen?
 
David S said:
The vac tester probably isn't the place to start here. Your C5 is an early HDi 01-04 yes? That does have an electric pre-pump in the tank per the info at the link I gave earlier. It needs to produce 0.8Bar and the supply at the engine fuse box is a common fault. You might add a secondary power supply wire per the picture posted here ...

HDI C5 wont start

I have a 2004 HDI Estate it ran perfectly yesterday as I went to family for Christmas. This morning I went to start it would not go it only ran for a few seconds even if i try to rev it it only runs for a few seconds anybody have any ideas. as it gave me no problem at all until this morning it...
www.aussiefrogs.com
Click to expand...
Unless they tow it away from the shopping car park tomorrow, I'll be back there on Thursday. According to advise by others, this VIN
has no pump in tank.
Time will tell, if I don't get it going, I'll remove tank opening and see what's there.
And David, I'll diligently access all those cables and terminals for sign of over heating.
John
20230711_141304.jpg
 
It's an RHZ! Mt son's 307 has an RHY.

I have an RHZ here - in a 2003 406 HDi. It doesn't go either (but it doesn't fire at all - immobiliser problem).
 
Armidillo said:
It's an RHZ! Mt son's 307 has an RHY.

I have an RHZ here - in a 2003 406 HDi. It doesn't go either (but it doesn't fire at all - immobiliser problem).
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear that Alec, hope that's not out on sympathy with mine.
John
 
Are you sure it has fuel and the fuel is diesel?

Cheers, Ken
 
Carlo5 has a RHZ engine and in-tank fuel pump. Was the original reason it was a non-runner, but Ken's post put me on the right track on pump not working due to burnt out pins
 
JAJEA said:
Sorry to hear that Alec, hope that's not out on sympathy with mine.
John
Click to expand...
No, I bought it like that - have prioritised keeping my registered vehicles on the road, so the 406 is low on the pecking order.
 
Ken W said:
Are you sure it has fuel and the fuel is diesel?

Cheers, Ken
Click to expand...
Very, very sure Ken, it was the first thing to strike off.
C5 came back from the long trip last week and on Monday used for the first time.
They got to the shopping centre car park - no issues whatsoever but would not run for the trip home.
Initially, I told them to try to jump start it as it sounded to be starter motor problem considering it is a 19 year old car that covered 310K kms.
So, I got involved with a fresh 10l can of diesel. It made no difference despite all the cranking.
John
 
Back to the C5 tomorrow.
I've been thinking aloud
about its failure to run. Diesel motors do not have ignition per se as do petrol motors and the diesel motor is switched off by simply starving it of diesel.
I believe that this "switching off" maybe achieved by switching off the fuel pump or a shut down solenoid valve operated by a relay.
As there is conflicting information as to whether it has a tank pump or not, does anyone know if there is shutdown valve in the system?
John
 
John, for your VIN VF7DERHZE76530266 with RP 10098 CJ this is the tank unit ... with pump.

1689156278765.png
 
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