Big Brakes for the Dauphine

Ross

Ross

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Fellow Frogger
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Big Brakes for the Duaphine

Hi All
I am in the process of gathering together all the parts I need for a big brake conversion for the Dauphine. I have wrecked a R16 so have the calipers, caliper brackets and discs etc.

However the discs are near minimum thickness (10.7mm) so I really need new ones.

Does anyone know where I can get new R16 front discs??

Thanks Ross :renault:
 
Do you already have R 10 gear grafted to it? The R 10 brakes, although skinny work OK, on even a modified Dauphine, given the 700Kg or less that has to be pulled up. You can even buy the EBC Blackstuff (road type) kevlar pads for these calipers. Took a while to bed in, but work well without the dust.
 
Yes Ive been using R8/R10 brakes for the last 2 years with Mintex pads (on my second set of front pads) and I agree they are great brakes.
However I'm always searching for a second here and half a second there on special stages/hillclimbs etc and also planning to go to 1600cc ali block motor with 16ts gearbox internals so I think the brake upgrade would be a wise move to match the increase in performance.

Ross :renault:
 
The conversion is fairly straight forward. I have 2 articles (in french) to guide me however some common sense and access to some machining is all thats needed.
The R16 disc needs to be machined to bolt onto the R8/10 hub. The hub needs to be redrilled. Then you need special plates from Meca Parts to bolt the R16 caliper frames to the R8/10 stub axle. The rest is just assembly.
I can supply copies of the articles (I have translated some of them) if you want.

Ross :renault:
 
Just as an aside, your Dauphine gained international print exposure appearing with a small pic and honorable mention on Page 13 of the UK Classic and Sports Car magazine (Feb 2004) in an item on Targa NZ.
 
Sorry for getting off topic

But yea Simons right, I Saw it at the newsagent the other day, it's in the early pages of the mag.
Well done.
Sorry I can't give any technical advice with the Brake upgrade.
 
Ross,
I already have a reasonable 16TS (114Hp ATW) and 16 gearbox internals in my 750. The R10 brakes are 266mm and I would doubt the 16TS ones are larger, just thicker. Brake leverage wise you will be no better off, and pad area is hardly larger,with a single slider piston assy like the R10. The thinner disc may even dissipate heat faster. Seems like a lot of work for minimal gain. Saying that, I have never seen, or used the mod you envisage. Great to see someone else trying to go fast the hard way, with old machinery that we keep getting told has the motor in the wrong end.
Ken at Caravelle at Box Hill North Victoria would be the place to look for the 16 discs.

750 Sport,
The early R8 (R1130) brakes are a bolt on fit. You will have to replace the hoses as well. R4 ones are too long (front). I think I used R16 or 12 front ones on the front and 10 rear ones on the rear. The pipes will have reflared with more modern tube nuts fitted.
The later 8 and 10 have a 10mm approx. longer stub axle. The outer bearing will need the hub machined 10mm deeper to use on a 750, and also a few mm will need to be taken from the the seal area at the back for clearance.The bearings on post 1951 750s are the same as 10s, but I don't know about your earlier type car.
 
alan moore said:
Ross,
I already have a reasonable 16TS (114Hp ATW) and 16 gearbox internals in my 750. The R10 brakes are 266mm and I would doubt the 16TS ones are larger, just thicker. Brake leverage wise you will be no better off, and pad area is hardly larger,with a single slider piston assy like the R10. The thinner disc may even dissipate heat faster. Seems like a lot of work for minimal gain. Saying that, I have never seen, or used the mod you envisage.
Click to expand...

It seems a fairly common mod on hard driven 8's and Alpines in Europe. However as you say there is only a minor difference in the swept area of the brakes, 2212cm2 for the 8 brakes, and just over 2216cm2 (depending on if 250mm TL discs or 254mm TS discs) for the 16. The 16 pad is about 3mm wider.

However I think the main difference would be heat sink back through the piston to the fluid, as you know the full circle of the piston of the 8 caliper is in contact with the pad, whereas on the 16, only a circle of the piston is in contact with the pad so less heat gets soaked into the piston to boil the fluid in extreme situations.

There was an item on the STARC Aquitane site some time ago but I can't find it now. Also I remember seeing the differences feature on an SBS Tour de France Auto program of all places to see the brakes being shown.......
 
Simon said:
Just as an aside, your Dauphine gained international print exposure appearing with a small pic and honorable mention on Page 13 of the UK Classic and Sports Car magazine (Feb 2004) in an item on Targa NZ.
Click to expand...

World Famous in my own lunchtime, ah but the price of fame. Must go the paparazi are nocking down the door.

Ross :renault:
 
From what I have read in french articles on the subject there are 2 main advantages with this upgrade.
1. The thick disc dissapates heat faster
2. The R16 caliper has a much bigger (sorry forget the actual measurements) piston and when used with a 22mm master cylinder gives a more powerful braking system.

It all sounds good in theory so I will give it a try but you may be right about minimal gain.

Yes this is a common upgrade in europe, it has been around since the early 70's and is still being used on restoration projects.

Ross :renault:
 
ROSS,

Many moons ago I added dual calipers to front discs to improve poor braking\fade on a track car and it worked really well. Twice the pad area and twice the caliper to dissipate the heat. Less of the disc is available to shed heat but with ducted airflow to assist cooling it was fine for short events.

I have seen this on a few sports sedans, but usually with big diameter disc with twin 4 spots, as big 6 pot calipers require a mortgage!

The bore of the master cylinders needs to have twice the cross sectional area to supply the volume\pressure requirements of the dual calipers. The mount plate is the major fabrication and the block to split the brake line to allow 2 flexible hoses is available from the rear brake systems of most vehicles.

A copy of the articles you have would be appreciated; my email is tonymoir@hotmail.com

ALAN,
Thanks for the info but I was looking a loosing the kingpins lever action shocks and replacing the frail control looking arms with the later R8/R10 ball joint assemblies.

As the front cross member is flat on the top (to mount lever action shock and control arm assembly) there is no attachment point for a tubular shock so I suspect I will need to install a complete R10 cross member\arms\brakes and steering. This will also present less stress when dealing with RTA as all parts will be OEM. If the R16 calipers offer a real advantage I would look at incorporating this as braking is one of those things you cannot have too much of..

Regards
Tony
 
750sport said:
DBA list a fitting
http://www.dba.com.au/dba_catalogue_2004/HTML/pdf/Out/Renault.pdf

I am most interested in what is involved in the front end upgrade as I am needing to do the same to am early 4CV (lever action shocks!!!!) Any details for the R10 or R10/16 would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...

As the owner of a lever-action shocker 750 I can make a few comments. There aren't many left, so this would mean one less in original condition, but you're the owner.

The lever action cars have screw bush suspension so it is sharp but wears easily. The shockers are perfectly adequate for 19 bhp but not much more!

I'd have thought you'd want to fit later front suspension with telescopic shockers and silentbloc bushes (there is an intermediate version with telescopic shockers and screw bushes.) Either way, you might be better finding a later model shell with the right crossmember that has a turret that accomodates the telescopic shockers already in the car.

Fitting the disc brakes isn't as much of a challenge as the suspension itself, I'd have thought. The R8/R10 discs should pull up a 750 pretty well!!

Cheers

JohnW
 
JohnW, I wouldn't worry too much about the loss of another "original R1060" in the case of 750Sport's car - the fortunate man is the owner of, and talking about, the ONLY "Moir Renault Special" still in existence. Refer back to previous "Fourwords" for the details.

And yes, Tony, I'd say you're definitely on the right track moving from the early lever arm 4CV suspension to a later arrangement - pity we never had the late model disk braked Dauphines in Australia! I don't have the books near me at present and I'm not going out to the shed now to check (as in midnight), but I'm fairly sure the top of the front shock absorber towers in later 4CVs was a "bolt-in" casting. That and late 4CV susp might be easier than trying to install a different front crossmember.

Cheers

George
 
GeorgeC said:
JohnW, I wouldn't worry too much about the loss of another "original R1060" in the case of 750Sport's car - the fortunate man is the owner of, and talking about, the ONLY "Moir Renault Special" still in existence. Refer back to previous "Fourwords" for the details.

And yes, Tony, I'd say you're definitely on the right track moving from the early lever arm 4CV suspension to a later arrangement - pity we never had the late model disk braked Dauphines in Australia! I don't have the books near me at present and I'm not going out to the shed now to check (as in midnight), but I'm fairly sure the top of the front shock absorber towers in later 4CVs was a "bolt-in" casting. That and late 4CV susp might be easier than trying to install a different front crossmember.

Cheers

George
Click to expand...

Cool! Nice to know that the Special has survived! Just had a look at my 750 parts book, it would appear that the crossmember is different in that the upper portion has a hole to allow the top of the shocker to poke through. But I'm no expert on 750's so it may not be as simple as gas axing a hole to suit, strength could be compromised.

I did read somwhere though that 1063's had the larger drums from the Juvaquatre fitted somehow to give better braking. Then again trying to find a Juva donor would be the next job.......
 
GeorgeC said:
JohnW, I wouldn't worry too much about the loss of another "original R1060" in the case of 750Sport's car - the fortunate man is the owner of, and talking about, the ONLY "Moir Renault Special" still in existence. Refer back to previous "Fourwords" for the details.

And yes, Tony, I'd say you're definitely on the right track moving from the early lever arm 4CV suspension to a later arrangement - pity we never had the late model disk braked Dauphines in Australia! I don't have the books near me at present and I'm not going out to the shed now to check (as in midnight), but I'm fairly sure the top of the front shock absorber towers in later 4CVs was a "bolt-in" casting. That and late 4CV susp might be easier than trying to install a different front crossmember.

Cheers

George
Click to expand...

George - thanks for that. Lucky man indeed!!!! Glad he's part of the community. Has he joined the 4CV register?

Tony,

The later 4CV shock absorber towers did bolt on as far as I can remember, with a hole just where you wouldn't want to cut one in the earlier car. Again, if I remember correctly, the hole is nearly as wide as the cross member and just beside where the cross member is welded to the chassis rail. I don't think the bolt holes line up with those for the Renault-made lever action shock absorbers (which are good quality in terms of manufacturing but not particularly sophisticated). I considered this modification about 30 years ago for my car but decided against the surgery! You might find an appropriate cross member through the 4CV register - I don't think they're available as a remanufactured body part, which George can probably confirm.

You've the choice of larger drums with telescopic shock absorbers (in period) or discs (which well and truly post date the car). I presume the Moir is being refurbished. It's a rare bit of Australian Renault heritage, and quite a few of us are very interested, even though you don't know us all.

Cheers

JohnW
 
All,

The front cross member is such that removing any of it for a shock to pass thru it would mean no strength left at all.

The "J and S Reno Spider" to give it its correct name is a replica of the original "Moir Renault" special.

It is based on a early 750 pan with all body work removed other than 2 foot high front bulkhead and boot floor and 2 foot high rear bulkhead with inner guards. The chassis reinforcing is a piece of water pipe bent up as a hoop under the dash to support door hinges and steering column.

It has Dauphine Gordini wheels\brakes\engine at present.

It was last registered in 1970 and stored in a damp garage for some 30 years so the condition is poor, but it is complete. The body condition requires a large amount of work to remove the "improvements" made by its several previous owners and crash damage both poorly and unrepaired.

My difficulty is that there is no original specification for a car like this, so I have taken the decision to use a mid 60's cut off for the restoration. This allows for a period look but still provides a good road\track car.

The ideal therefore is 750 upgraded to R8G specs. Donor R8Gs would have been available at the time this car was on the road but today this is not feasible. So I am looking at R10 front-end, R10s 4 speed (with trailing links) with R5G engine with Mecaparts R8 look-alike sump\valve cover\manifolds.

A 600kg 100+ HP car with good disc brakes and suspension should result.

The progress so far is....... bugger all other than lots of small parts, badges, gauges and lots of books.

My next major decision is where to start. The body has to come off the pan, so unbonding it to allow for the mechanical\structural upgrades is the first big job. I was going to do the bodywork first but I will only repair and strengthen as necessary as I believe the revised mechanicals may require body modifications. I will make moulds so I have spare body parts for road use.

Any suggestions\advise would be appreciated!!!!!!!!

But back to ROSS's thread....if the R16 caliper IS an advantage I would love to know exactly what is involved, as I would think this is a period modification for my car.

Regards Tony
 
750sport said:
All,

The front cross member is such that removing any of it for a shock to pass thru it would mean no strength left at all.

The "J and S Reno Spider" to give it its correct name is a replica of the original "Moir Renault" special. It is based on a early 750 pan with all body work removed other than 2 foot high front bulkhead and boot floor and 2 foot high rear bulkhead with inner guards. The chassis reinforcing is a piece of water pipe bent up as a hoop under the dash to support door hinges and steering column.
My difficulty is that there is no original specification for a car like this, so I have taken the decision to use a mid 60's cut off for the restoration. This allows for a period look but still provides a good road\track car.


Regards Tony
Click to expand...

Tony,

Now I understand! Best of luck. Does the R5G engine fit mid-60s cutoff?

The main gratuitous advice would be not to crash it! I'll bet the current "chassis reinforcing" is a joy to behold!!

There's not much weight to stop, and I note that Mecaparts are now offering new R8 disc callipers. At last.

I doubt I can offer much more useful advice, as you obviously are well advanced in thinking about what to do. One thought would be to consider a supercharged R8 1100 as a very "period" engine instead of the R5, which never came to Australia. However, you'd have considered that way forward, I'm sure.

Period wheels? Don't need to be that wide I guess, so lots of options of the three stud variety.

Again, best of luck.

JohnW
 
JohnW,

Mecaparts have a R8G style valve cover and sump for the R5G so with twin solexs it will look the part.....I would prefer a R8G engine or gearbox and would buy one if available.

Alloys are an option but steel wheels are more likely, the current 3" rims have 5.10 15 crossplys with 3 inchs of tread, masive positive rear camber it would be exciting in the wet!

I have had thoughts on making a alloy wheel centre to look like a early 750 "spider wheel" and use a wider removable steel rim but that will be a decision for later on in the project.

Regards
Tony
 
750sport said:
JohnW,

Mecaparts have a R8G style valve cover and sump for the R5G so with twin solexs it will look the part.....I would prefer a R8G engine or gearbox and would buy one if available.

Alloys are an option but steel wheels are more likely, the current 3" rims have 5.10 15 crossplys with 3 inchs of tread, masive positive rear camber it would be exciting in the wet!

I have had thoughts on making a alloy wheel centre to look like a early 750 "spider wheel" and use a wider removable steel rim but that will be a decision for later on in the project.

Regards
Tony
Click to expand...

Commonsense says stay away from the R8G parts I reckon. Cylinder heads are no small issue..... Quite apart from the rarity of everything.

You could get 16 internals in the 10S box too, which would strengthen it nicely.

Pity spider wheels aren't strong enough. But they're not!!! If you could get close in another way, no doubt at a large cost, it would look fabulous. Nothing like a spider wheel, as the owner of a set!!

Cheers and good luck with the restoration/rebuilding.

JohnW
 
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