Bad Luck: Da Matta

[renaulturbo]

There is no excuse for deliberately crashing into another car on the circuit... ever...

Easy to say. Would u accept being robbed of a World Championship?

 

[Pug-a-lug]

Easy to say. Would u accept being robbed of a World Championship?

But would you kill someone to win a World Championship?

 

[renaulturbo]

But would you kill someone to win a World Championship?

Thats a bit subjective. Taking probability from the last death (82) to the incident (90) the probability of death in that era could be taken roughly at 1 in 144. Ramming Prost off the road does and did not equate to killing Prost. It equates to dangerous driving and Senna took that risk

Its the kind of things that happen when justice does not prevail (and when there's a French FIA president at the same time as a French title contender :roflmao: )

Much exaggeration was placed on the safety of that incident. There was a huge run off area. He didnt plough him against a wall in an attempt to kill him. In 1990 the safety of cars was demonstrably improved to 1950's or 60's where death was nearly of frequent occurence in F1 and where your 'But would you kill someone to win a World Championship?' question would be better suited

But dangerous it was and the old ' he couldve killed someone!' stands tall in people's heads

 

[Pug-a-lug]

Interesting use of statistics!!

But although F1 has been relatively 'death-free' lately (except for a horrible weekend at Imola 11 years ago), it hasn't been 'severly injured' free.

Phillipe Streiff, Martin Donelly and Karl Wendlinger are some names that spring to mind of those who sustained life-threatening injuries while driving F1 cars, and who lives will never be the same again.

Senna intentionally rammed Prost's car at just over 200 km/h. Luckily for Prost :

a) He didn't get airborne
b) He didn't get killed by broken-off suspension components
c) The relative speeds of the cars was low so that his monocoque didn't break apart a la Zanardi and he still has his legs.

We all love to watch hard, close racing. But that has got nothing to do with intentionally using your car as a weapon to spear someone off the track.

I'm amazed that the FIA didn't censure Senna when they looked at the telemetry.... or even when he admitted it one year later!

 

[PLAYLIFE]

An eye for an eye. Not very Christian by Senna who swore by the holy faith but you gotta say, the outcome was equal for both. The same cannot be said for Schuey's indiscretions. Too many pre-determined actions with absolutely no legitimate background & reason for the aggresion by my book

Whether Senna had a reason to do it or not, is not a justification for that kind of driving. He was fighting with the FIA was he not, so why endanger Prost's life?

Hey if your of the opinion Senna was worse than Schuey, fair enough. But if you do, i assume u would have been in accordance with Didier Pironi's conduct in '82....in the race before the great Villeneuve lost his life....?

His conduct was poor at Imola, but it did not cause Villeneuve's death. The reason why Gilles died was because he risked everything in a do-or-die attempt to gain pole, nothing more. It's not the first time we saw team orders not followed, just ask Jones the year before with his best mate Carlos.

 

[Ray Bell]

There was also the fact that the Ferrari wasn't strong enough to retain the belts...

 

[renaulturbo]

Interesting use of statistics!!

Ive never seen 'interesting' and 'statistics together Number of deaths over a healthy sample of races(number of races from last death to incident)/assume 1 accident of equal severity to suzuka '90 per race meeting which i thought was fairly accurate and...wala...a rough trend is developed

Senna intentionally rammed Prost's car at just over 200 km/h. Luckily for Prost

Between fatal accidents nowadays, there are 1000's of accidents which are luckily non fatal..one of these was Suzuka '90

I'm amazed that the FIA didn't censure Senna when they looked at the telemetry.... or even when he admitted it one year later!

Me too....given the treatment the FIA headed by 'Fuhrer' Balestre gave Senna....I guess justice was closure for the whole ordeal

Whether Senna had a reason to do it or not, is not a justification for that kind of driving. He was fighting with the FIA was he not, so why endanger Prost's life?

No comment...figure that 'riddle' out for yourself

His conduct was poor at Imola, but it did not cause Villeneuve's death. The reason why Gilles died was because he risked everything in a do-or-die attempt to gain pole, nothing more. It's not the first time we saw team orders not followed, just ask Jones the year before with his best mate Carlos.

How can you not say Pironi's conduct contributed to Villeneuve's death? Obviously he wasnt a cause but think about the state of mind Villeneuve was just before he lost his life....would it be fair to say Villeneuve wouldnt have died if it wasnt for Pironi's actions? I think so

Geees that was dirty. Schumacher would've been proud of that one!

 

[PLAYLIFE]

How can you not say Pironi's conduct contributed to Villeneuve's death? Obviously he wasnt a cause but think about the state of mind Villeneuve was just before he lost his life....would it be fair to say Villeneuve wouldnt have died if it wasnt for Pironi's actions? I think so

Honestly, no. Gilles chose to react the way he did to Pironi's actions at Imola, he was not forced into thinking that way by Didier. It was a factor in leading Gilles into that state of mind, but you cannot say that Didier was a contributing factor to what happened at Zolder. In F1, you cannot let emotions overtake your brains. Gilles always took risks, many risks, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have a serious career ending accident at some stage of his career of Zolder never occurred.

What occurred at Zolder, was a consequence of many many things, namely the poor safety of 1982 spec F1 cars (take a look at the profile view and see how close the driver sits to the front of the car) as well as the Ferrari's poor safety itself. Didier had an almost identical accident at Hockenheim later in the year proving that.

As you can tell from my avatar and signature, I am a huge Gilles fan but I do not blame Pironi for his death.

 

[renaulturbo]

There was also the fact that the Ferrari wasn't strong enough to retain the belts...

Did it ever!...that was one of the scariest scenes in F1 that ive seen

Honestly, no. Gilles chose to react the way he did to Pironi's actions at Imola, he was not forced into thinking that way by Didier. It was a factor in leading Gilles into that state of mind, but you cannot say that Didier was a contributing factor to what happened at Zolder. In F1, you cannot let emotions overtake your brains. Gilles always took risks, many risks, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have a serious career ending accident at some stage of his career of Zolder never occurred.

What occurred at Zolder, was a consequence of many many things, namely the poor safety of 1982 spec F1 cars (take a look at the profile view and see how close the driver sits to the front of the car) as well as the Ferrari's poor safety itself. Didier had an almost identical accident at Hockenheim later in the year proving that.

As you can tell from my avatar and signature, I am a huge Gilles fan but I do not blame Pironi for his death.

Sheees i cant believe how calmly you deny any Pironi influence on Villeneuve's accident...arent Villeneuve fans supposed to have fire in the belly like the great man himself?

When you read books on the incident, they always mention what happened the race before and always mention the anger Villeneuve must have felt, still fresh in his mind, when qualifying for Zolder. They describe it as "pushed him to his death".

It was a factor in leading Gilles into that state of mind, but you cannot say that Didier was a contributing factor to what happened at Zolder

Are you stating Gilles wasnt even a tad angry at his team mate from the last race?? And more on Gilles who arguably had the 'rawest' speed of any driver in F1 history and was an emotional driver.

Gilles chose to react the way he did to Pironi's actions at Imola.

How can you say he 'chose' to react that way???

In F1, you cannot let emotions overtake your brains.

True but sometimes with certain people it becomes clear earlier than others that we are flesh and bones (eg.Gilles) and not a robot. As human beings, drivers have to try to filter everything out which dosent contribute to them recording a faster time on the track. They cant just press a button and detach themselves from everything that affects them. Eg. if a drivers mum dies the day before a GP, dont you think that would affect a driver? Sure in that case they would try to turn it into a positive and try to dedicate a win or good performance to her...but a team mate which you happened to get a long very well with doing the dirties on you? A guy like Villeneuve which already breathed fire when at the wheel of his Ferrari would have been a ticking time bomb!!!

I dunno, i dont understand your reasoning and i'll leave it at that

 

[PLAYLIFE]

Are you stating Gilles wasnt even a tad angry at his team mate from the last race?? And more on Gilles who arguably had the 'rawest' speed of any driver in F1 history and was an emotional driver.

How can you say he 'chose' to react that way???

Of course Gilles was angry, I mean who wouldn't be. But take a look at how other drivers carried themselves and reacted to similar incidents, prime example being the Jones/Reutemann feud a year earlier. There are lots of examples of teammates doing the dirty on each other, but in those situations, the 'victim' has to learn to deal with it and move on. I think the press played a large part in dramatising the whole situation as well, far beyond it's actual worth.
And like I mentioned earlier, emotion doesn't really have a place in F1 in that it will only cloud judgement rather than improve it.

True but sometimes with certain people it becomes clear earlier than others that we are flesh and bones (eg.Gilles) and not a robot. As human beings, drivers have to try to filter everything out which dosent contribute to them recording a faster time on the track. They cant just press a button and detach themselves from everything that affects them. Eg. if a drivers mum dies the day before a GP, dont you think that would affect a driver? Sure in that case they would try to turn it into a positive and try to dedicate a win or good performance to her...but a team mate which you happened to get a long very well with doing the dirties on you? A guy like Villeneuve which already breathed fire when at the wheel of his Ferrari would have been a ticking time bomb!!!

I dunno, i dont understand your reasoning and i'll leave it at that

And in the end, the 'was the way he was', his innocence and naiveity became his undoing.

I'm taking anything away from him, and cannot imagine him having a robot personality, as he was from what I have read an unbelievable human being who has the utmost respect from almost everyone who has had the pleasure of meeting him. One of, if not the most honourable man to grace the F1 scene.

 

[cam740]

Back top the topic of Shumi.........

Did anyone else find his little "move" on Klein in Melbourne another example of him refusing to allow ppl to safely pass him??? I thought that was one of his worse efforts in recent years!!