Anyone got a sump?

pottsy

pottsy

Citroen Loony & BMC Nutter.
VIP Paid Subscriber
1000+ Posts
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Sep 23, 2002
Messages
1,594
Location
Melbourne, Northern Suburbs
I've currently got the sump off the "resurrection project" 205 gti.

The owner was a little concerned when he did a few track days, before laying it up for a while, that the sump really needed baffles as the cornering forces are very high in the Hatchback of Notre Dame, and winking oil pressure lights are always a distraction. :)

I believe that Taylor Engineering used to offer a baffled sump on a changeover service, but Peter isn't doing them any more apparently.

So my question to the Brains Trust: Does anyone have a baffled sump for an XU9J1 engine that they don't want or need? We can swap for an unbaffled unit if necessary.

Is there a pattern for the baffle that is available for duplication, preferably without infringing anyone's IP? Should I try to dummy something up in cardboard or whatever and have a crack?

Is it a difficult job for an experienced welder of aluminium to fabricate such a thing? Does anyone have spare XU9J1 sump we could play with while keeping the original in reserve in case of stuffups?

Alternatively, I'd be keen to hear of other options available. Do the sumps from any other XU series engines (a) fit and (b) have baffles?

I'm on a steep learning curve with these engines so all information is good information.

Cheers, Pottsy.
 
I will have my Constella baffled sump available for inspection in the next day or so, then back on the new engine. You could come to Dandenong and take a look?
 
  • Like
Reactions: UNM
Welding these is tempting fate. It can be done (I had mine modified and welded by an aircraft engineer) but the alloy is so crap, it is a pain in the butt. After more than ten years, I think mine has some cracks developing in the welds now because it is seeping somewhere around there. I would suggest avoid welding if you can.

I have made my own baffle/windage tray combo and it is working very nicely if I do say so myself. But it is a separate unit sandwiched between the sump and the block, made of 1mm thick sheet steel. Everything hangs off that. It is very hard to get off because you have to take the oil pump out first (I wanted it to be one piece so I have to pay this price). I am sure there are other ways to do it and other priorities so I would encourage you to have a crack yourself.
 
I didn’t realise they were so difficult to weld.

Why not use an XU10 sump?
 
OK, so does an XU10 sump bolt straight on? I may have access to one.

And presumably it's baffled?

All information gratefully received.
 
Thanks for the offer Graham, but I'm kinda tied up until next week. Any chance you could take a picture or two while it's off?

Cheers, Pottsy.
 
OK, I've done some more reading now and it appears that while I can biot on an XU10 baffled sump, I may also need to extend the oil pump downwards? Is that correct.

And do I also need to source a windage tray? Is it that vital?

I'm now very confused.

Cheers, Pottsy.
 
Cant you just run them just overfull and there ok?? Thats all I've ever done in the 205si thrasher. A fellow pccv member ran his 405 mi16 like that for years around phillip island. 🤔
 
All XU10 A/C sumps are baffled, whether 8V or 16V. All XU10 cars imported into Australia had A/C.

An XU10 sump is the same height as a DFZ sump.

An XU10 sump is the same height as a DKZ, D6B, DFW or D6C sump PLUS the spacer/stiffener.

Only late XU10J4 and XU10J4RS engines had windage trays.

I stopped making baffled trap door XU9 sumps because I couldn't justify $200 when an XU10 sump was $60-$100.

The worst XU10 sumps are the later XU10J4R/RS with the extra support wings, as they don't suit XU9 engines.

My better sumps also had a trap door on the pump baffle.
 

Attachments

  • s16_sump1.JPG
    s16_sump1.JPG
    65.1 KB · Views: 90
  • trap door pump baffle 3.jpg
    trap door pump baffle 3.jpg
    121.6 KB · Views: 92
OK, thanks Peter. That clarifies things more than a little.

We have access to a BX 16V motor that is, presumably, an XU10 so I suppose we might consider a swap with that one. Failing that, I guess I put the feelers out for an XU10 sump on its own.

There's a plate on the motor that says "DFV" which makes me wonder just which type it is. The block was a replacement when No 1 son rebuilt the engine some years ago so I'm not too sure where that came from.

BP505. I suppose running overfull is an option, but not one I'd like to explore, frankly. Having had engines that tended to eject oil from several orifices when inadvertently overfilled, I'm not sure it appeals to me for the 205 to be doing that.

This car is never going to be a race monster. It's intended to return it to the road as a fun car for the odd bit of motorsport such as motorkhana, autocross, even hill-climb at times. It will, in all probability, be driven enthusiastically in between times.

To me, simply overfilling is a bit of a brute force solution. I like the idea of a gated baffle and, since the sump is off to replace the suspected leaky gasket, now is the time to try some future-proofing in a small way.

Cheers, Pottsy
 
You only need to extend the pickup 13mm down, if you use an XU10 sump with a spacer/stiffener plate.

BX16V is DFW. ie alloy XU9J4Z. It has a shallow, open, finned sump and the spacer plate.
 

Attachments

  • sump_005_967.jpg
    sump_005_967.jpg
    117 KB · Views: 91
BX is XU9, the BX never had the iron block XU10. DFV is an early 405 8 valve, semi downdraft ports with different inlet manifold so yours would have a DFZ head fitted.
 
Really only the 16 valve that had surge trouble, due in part to the oil collecting in the large space above the head. I don't think you will have any trouble especially if you just use normal road tyres.
 
pottsy said:
OK, thanks Peter. That clarifies things more than a little.

We have access to a BX 16V motor that is,
Click to expand...
I'm totally confused between you and Graham. You say you have a BX16V engine and Graham says you don't.
 
Just to totally confuse you, Peugeot Sport sold a baffled finned XU9 sump, which the likes of Peter Brock etc. fitted to the Bathurst Mi16 and BX16V engines.
 
OK, I think I've got this straight.

The motor I have on the bench from the car is an XU9 8 valve type DFV, block possibly ex 405. Block was replaced when rebuilt about 15 years or so ago. Head is the original 8 valve I believe. The sump on this motor has no baffles.

The motor sitting waiting quietly in the wings to which I have access is from a BX16V Citroen. I thought it was an XU10 but it may be a fancy version of the XU9 then? This may have the baffled sump, ( or by 'open" do you mean no baffle?) but should have spacer plate and extended oil pump?

I appreciate that putting the 16V engine in the 205 would be a Good Thing, but more work than either myself or No 1 are prepared to put in at present. Oh and the car is on normal road tyres. Perhaps when No 1 experienced surge he was either trying way too hard at Calder or the level was down!

Sounds like the Peugeot Sport sump is exactly what we need. Hen's teeth I suspect.

Cheers, Pottsy
 
Last edited:
Years ago I used the overfill technique on a 124 Coupe. It used to suffer horrific oil surge on right hand corners. Amaroo in particular. With it overfilled slightly it was never a problem - fitting a baffled sump involved removing the cross member, removing the suspension etcetc and I never wanted to go to that trouble. I could watch the oil pressure gauge drop down mid corner and come back up again on exit. The added bonus of overfilling was that whenever the oil pressure light came on, I knew it was time to topup the oil !

Cheers

Justin
 
pottsy said:
OK, I think I've got this straight.

The motor I have on the bench from the car is an XU9 8 valve type DFV, block possibly ex 405. Block was replaced when rebuilt about 15 years or so ago. Head is the original 8 valve I believe. The sump on this motor has no baffles.

The motor sitting waiting quietly in the wings to which I have access is from a BX16V Citroen. I thought it was an XU10 but it may be a fancy version of the XU9 then? This may have the baffled sump, ( or by 'open" do you mean no baffle?) but should have spacer plate and extended oil pump?

I appreciate that putting the 16V engine in the 205 would be a Good Thing, but more work than either myself or No 1 are prepared to put in at present. Oh and the car is on normal road tyres. Perhaps when No 1 experienced surge he was either trying way too hard at Calder or the level was down!

Sounds like the Peugeot Sport sump is exactly what we need. Hen's teeth I suspect.

Cheers, Pottsy
Click to expand...
I think my Constella is based on the Peugeot Sport sump, built on a sandwich plate that slips between the block and the sump. PS also used an extended sump out the front I think, and as Peter says fins.
 
GRAHAM WALLIS said:
I think my Constella is based on the Peugeot Sport sump, built on a sandwich plate that slips between the block and the sump. PS also used an extended sump out the front I think, and as Peter says fins.
Click to expand...
The sump I speak of looks like an XU10 on the inside (trap door) and normal finned XU9 on the outside.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top