Aftermarket ecu advice required. Pug 306 gti6 "running" an EFI Technologies Euro 1

PeterT said:
In regards to wasted spark, whilst it obviously works, it's also a compromise, as one spark plug of the two is firing in reverse polarity. Having direct fire ensures each plug is optimised, firing only once per engine cycle and in the right direction.
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@PeterT is spot on, as usual. When I first started hillclimbing a 306 XSi I wondered why it, and the 1.8 I had, specified dual ground electrode plugs. After combing mountains of internet hearsay I learned that the opposite polarities of a waste spark coil changes which part of the plug gets eroded most, negative erodes the tip, positive erodes the ground electrode, hence the dual electrodes can help extend the service life. Also made me consider using cheaper single electrode plugs and occasionally rotating the opposing plugs to extend service life :dance:
 
All the advice I can give is, keep it basic. There all as good as each other if you know
What you’re doing. Do you have the software and laptop for the ecu?

Peter T has a lot of experience with highly developed pug engines. I’d be going with what peterT says.

I run an old M48 motec In my 505 v6turbo and it’s so easy to use if you have the patience and the right 32bit laptop. But I’ll update one day.

If I was to build from scratch I’d be using what’s popular. Haltech and emtron are the best value for money. Motec is expensive megasquirt is ok but behind the times. But you also have trigger wheels crank and cam sensors, air sensors. Coolant sensors, list goes on.
It’s a big expensive job what ever ecu you go for.
Dearest and risky part is tuning.

End of the day depends how deep your pockets are.

BP
 
BP505v6Turbo said:
All the advice I can give is, keep it basic. There all as good as each other if you know
What you’re doing. Do you have the software and laptop for the ecu?

Peter T has a lot of experience with highly developed pug engines. I’d be going with what peterT says.

I run an old M48 motec In my 505 v6turbo and it’s so easy to use if you have the patience and the right 32bit laptop. But I’ll update one day.

If I was to build from scratch I’d be using what’s popular. Haltech and emtron are the best value for money. Motec is expensive megasquirt is ok but behind the times. But you also have trigger wheels crank and cam sensors, air sensors. Coolant sensors, list goes on.
It’s a big expensive job what ever ecu you go for.
Dearest and risky part is tuning.

End of the day depends how deep your pockets are.

BP
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It can be very cheap and easy if you run MS1 on a 505 GTi with fuel only. OK, only 8 by 8 map but still better than the Bosch L Jet. Doesn't help if you have a GTi6 engine though!
 
BP505v6Turbo said:
All the advice I can give is, keep it basic. There all as good as each other if you know
What you’re doing. Do you have the software and laptop for the ecu?

Peter T has a lot of experience with highly developed pug engines. I’d be going with what peterT says.

I run an old M48 motec In my 505 v6turbo and it’s so easy to use if you have the patience and the right 32bit laptop. But I’ll update one day.

If I was to build from scratch I’d be using what’s popular. Haltech and emtron are the best value for money. Motec is expensive megasquirt is ok but behind the times. But you also have trigger wheels crank and cam sensors, air sensors. Coolant sensors, list goes on.
It’s a big expensive job what ever ecu you go for.
Dearest and risky part is tuning.

End of the day depends how deep your pockets are.

BP
Click to expand...
Forgot to mention.
If you do go the megasquirt route. Graham is good with it. He fixed the tune on our ms2 in 20mins. I’m sure graham can help if in Victoria.
 
AlexB said:
My guess is that just connects the harness plug to their proprietary interface
https://spoox.co.uk/efi-euro-2/6407-euro-efi-ecu-usb-can-communication-interface.html
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That link leads to a very expensive box ! And no mention of software required either !

Euro EFi ECU USB CAN Communication Interface​

Reference: MG104
Condition: New product

£ 540.00 tax incl

Euro EFi ECU USB CAN Communication Interface


Obviously Richard will need some communications with the ECU sooner or later and if he needs someone to tune it. It would have been supplied with software for the initial basic tune and some laptop software to load to communicate with it and change settings (tune). and handle down load of stored data that was logged. One difficulty may be that it might need a 32bit Windows program depending on the year. That expensive box above might be one way that solves some problems and connect to a modern readout. However I expect there would have been some other options available to original buyers. I am not an expert here nor even have recent experience.

Here is a link to the manufacturers site for software downloads. Possibly you could contact then for suggestions based on your ECU information.
https://efitechnology.eu/efi/?page_id=819
Jaahn
 
Thanks Jaan,

Yes that's the expensive and seemingly unavoidable interface. Crazy huh.

I've pretty much resolved not to spend any more on the current engine management setup including tuning if I can get away with it for a while. Time will tell if the tune is liveable.

Right now, my priority is to get it roadworthy, on club reg with PCCV have some fun with it and drive it to some events. After I've got some enjoyment out of it, I'll think about stuff like paint and when I might want to update the engine management which I am keen to do.

Meantime, based on the great advice here and my own requirements, I'll be keeping an eye out for secondhand ECUs that :
- Will run full sequential (I think if it's worth changing, it's worth upgrading to something more tunable and Peter T has convinced me on this)
- Has a few local tuners available I can go to that know the platform and will support for the foreseeable future
- May have support for e-throttle in case I want to take advantage of some different tuning options down the track. Not sold on this yet because it does knock out secondhand Autronic SM4's from consideration which otherwise seem great value for a solidly engineered system made by a Peugot appreciator.
- Is unlikely to be a solderable kit. I not averse to this, but the next (?) owner probably would be.
- May be a megasquirt. While not a traditional commercial platform, it seems to have enough support to make it a good long term proposition and plenty of grassroots advice out there. Thx Graeme.
- Is something I would be able to install and setup a basic tune with myself

If I do need access to the ECU it in the meantime, the only place I know for sure can do it is Competition Systems in Carrum Downs who are the local agents for the Jenvey throttle bodies. I have not spoken to them, but another PCCV member I have spoken to has not had a great experience with them, so I am reluctant to spend money there. It is possible CocoEurotech in Thomastown may have the gear to talk to it, but I haven't heard back from them to confirm they can. Interestingly, I called them out of the blue on a recommendation and they have seen the car before! They gave it a "computer diagnosis" and replaced some blocked injectors in January and gave it the OK, so I may be good for a while :)

I have a bit of work to do on the car still and definitely want to enjoy it for a while before any kind of brain surgery, but will definitely be keeping an eye out for suitable bargain ECUs that might suit for an upgrade, so let me know if you see anything!

Thanks all!

Richard
(Very new PCCV member with fam)
 
Try a search for Ole Buhl Racing (UK)
His LinkedIn profile reads he is probably their number one outlet and their English support portal, and relocated from UK to USA as their international sales and support contact.
His old UK website now redirects to OBR Control Systems Inc in Michigan. I reckon you should try and contact them and see their US price for the interface, and also ask if they know of any UK or AU tuners with old interfaces lying around after updating to latest hardware.

Also, try installing the software suite on a 32bit VM and have a look in the drivers directory for third party CAN interface software.
The server concept made me think it could be a Peak-System CAN interface as in addition to direct communication you can have the interface talk to a simple server on a low spec laptop and access it via tcpip from GUI on your desktop and another PC for datalogging.
 
Thx Alex,

I did find OBR online and should ask them about anyone they know here that deals with in EFI Tech gear. I'm pretty sure their new prices would be similarly silly though.

>Also, try installing the software suite on a 32bit VM and have a look in the drivers directory for third party CAN interface software.
> The server concept made me think it could be a Peak-System CAN interface as in addition to direct communication you can have the > interface talk to a simple server on a low spec laptop and access it via tcpip from GUI on your desktop and another PC for datalogging.

^^ I might just give that a go.

I thought I should talk to Competition Systems (the guys who I believe fitted the ECU) so I gave them a call and Pat was quite chatty and full of info and suggestions. these are some interesting things he had to say :

- They have many can interfaces there, but he has tried others and believes only the EFI Technologies one talks to the Euro 1
- They still have it and can still tune the Euro 1 and update the firmware.
- The Euro 1 is actually capable of fully sequential injection on a 4 cy with a cam sensor, and they have done this on other cars, so he was not sure why mine was not done this way (without a cam sensor). Possibly it was an early conversion (around 2005) on an older firmware version which did not support it, or it may have been done as a cheaper tuning option.
- Pat also didn't believe there were many advantages in a performance application to full sequential over batch, but conceded emissions and economy would be better sequential which is the main reason he believed it was done this way oem.
- A wide band o2 sensor could be added to this ECU to it to improve fuel trims. $175 interface sits on the back of a $120ish Bosch wideband 02 sensor.
- The Euro 1 does not have any datalogging functions to speak of.
- With some older ecus, the 60/2 Peugeot crank sensor has issues at high rpm because they can't deal with the higher frequency of a 60 tooth setup.
- He thought a Motec M800 would be a good alternative being widely used by tuners. Not cheap these.
- Regarding Megaquirt, they use them in a limited custom board fashion for specific projects like ignition conversions for older classis engines

I don't think I'm likely to do more with the current ECU for now, but it's nice to know there are more options.

cheers!

Richard
 
I concur with Pat's assessments, the pinout diagram you found was likely for a different application and firmware. Another reason is the tuner may have originally done multiple throttle bodies for a 205GTi engine which has no provision for a cam sensor and simply copied that to save time.
So something to keep in mind is that buying the interface, even at $1000, gives you the flexibility to fully interrogate, understand and exploit the current working system yourself. And should you decide to upgrade to latest and greatest EFI you'll be able to sell the Euro1 ECU, CAN interface and wiring harness to a 205GTI owner who wants to run multiple throttle bodies, keep the existing waste spark coils and fettle the tune themselves.....

Also, a lot of your queries were covered in this post

Aftermarket ECU setup questions (Haltech + 205gti)

I've bought a new Haltech Elite 550 for my 8 valve and I'm stumped on a few things. Basics first. High compression 8v, individual throttle bodies (Jenvey Weber style items), I have a new unterminated loom also from Haltech. Intended use, hot road car. 1. O2 sensor. It's looking like I'll need...
www.aussiefrogs.com
 
Hi Alex,

What you say makes some sense. The fact that my ecu is actually capable of running full sequential with a cam sensor has made me reconsider things somewhat. I just emailed the parent company in Italy to see if they can supply an interface directly or through an agent here. Spending $1000 on 20 year old tech still seems a stretch for me when it could go towards something with more features, accessibility and life ahead of it and I'm not sure it would be worth that much to anyone else, but if I can get a cheaper solution to make what I have more useful, I'd be up for that. Pat also did comment the expensive interface and general inaccessibility was somewhat of a failing of these and contributed to their minimal uptake despite their solid performance, features and value at the time.

Thanks for the link also. I recall skimming it it before, but looking at it in a fresh light, it's a very similar situation and full of info.

Richard
 
Richard Allen said:
Pat also did comment the expensive interface and general inaccessibility was somewhat of a failing of these and contributed to their minimal uptake despite their solid performance, features and value at the time.
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My stab in the dark is the CAN interface also provides a Write Enable signal (WREN pin21 in the pinout list you uploaded) to ensure no inadvertent reprogramming. It could be 0v or 5v or could be the Vpp needed to reflash. Most factory systems did this as well, Ford needed 18v, Mitsubishi and Subaru needed a specific voltage on a special programming harness.
 
AlexB said:
My stab in the dark is the CAN interface also provides a Write Enable signal (WREN pin21 in the pinout list you uploaded) to ensure no inadvertent reprogramming. It could be 0v or 5v or could be the Vpp needed to reflash. Most factory systems did this as well, Ford needed 18v, Mitsubishi and Subaru needed a specific voltage on a special programming harness.
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You're right Alex,

I did meter the pins on the odd can plug (looks a bit like an old ps/2 mouse connector) and attached a pic. The main issue would be getting the software to recognise the interface I think. There is a separate server app you need to use (ECServer) that wants you to select a USB or parallel port interface from a dropdown to connect and be the server for the main ECTMod software and allow it to communicate to the ECU. If there were a workaround/hack it probably would be easier to fake the parallel interface, but it's beyond my skill unless I can follow someone else's footsteps. Meantime I have contacted the manufacturer in Italy and OBS to see if they can supply something cheaper than Spoox. You never know until you ask!

Richard
 

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Richard Allen said:
- May have support for e-throttle in case I want to take advantage of some different tuning options down the track. Not sold on this yet because it does knock out secondhand Autronic SM4's from consideration which otherwise seem great value for a solidly engineered system made by a Peugot appreciator.
Click to expand...
DBW wouldn't be high on my priorities for a N/A 2L engine on throttle bodies. You don't have enough hp/torque to take advantage of torque control. I know Speaksgeek (Angus) on here runs it on his GTi180 with TB's and KV8 Emtron. Perhaps speak to him about it? Given you've already got a throttle cable and setup, I'd keep it for now. It also limits 2nd hand units. Not just the SM4, but also other great ecu's such as the Haltech Platinum Sport series.

Many UK tuners take the easy route, deleting the cam sensor, changing the coils to wasted spark and omitting atmospheric/manifold correction on the fuel pressure regulator. Drive it up the mountains and it's out of tune.
 
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PeterT said:
In regards to wasted spark, whilst it obviously works, it's also a compromise, as one spark plug of the two is firing in reverse polarity. Having direct fire ensures each plug is optimised, firing only once per engine cycle and in the right direction.
Click to expand...
Peter, why does that matter? Even if the direction in which the spark jumps, at the spark plug tip does make any difference, that 'wasted' spark isn't doing anything anyway. Thanks, Ando.
 
1972Ren said:
Peter, why does that matter? Even if the direction in which the spark jumps, at the spark plug tip does make any difference, that 'wasted' spark isn't doing anything anyway. Thanks, Ando.
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I mentioned this in post #41 above, in a waste spark coil there is a plug at either end of the High Tension coil which is what changes the polarity of the second plug and thus changes which part of plug erodes.
Note: this polarity change does not apply to Richard's GTi6 as it has four individual coils, though with two coils drawing current through one driver it possibly may current limit and not get fully charged in some instances.



wasted sp.GIF



I've since found info from NGK.

Waste Spark Ignitions - NGK Spark Plugs

If you drive a car from the 1980s, be aware of the waste spark ignition and what that could mean when you are purchasing replacement spark plugs.
ngksparkplugs.com ngksparkplugs.com
 
PeterT said:
DBW wouldn't be high on my priorities for a N/A 2L engine on throttle bodies. You don't have enough hp/torque to take advantage of torque control. I know Speaksgeek (Angus) on here runs it on his GTi180 with TB's and KV8 Emtron. Perhaps speak to him about it? Given you've already got a throttle cable and setup, I'd keep it for now. It also limits 2nd hand units. Not just the SM4, but also other great ecu's such as the Haltech Platinum Sport series.

Many UK tuners take the easy route, deleting the cam sensor, changing the coils to wasted spark and omitting atmospheric/manifold correction on the fuel pressure regulator. Drive it up the mountains and it's out of tune.
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Thanks Peter,

I'm more interested in the intriguing things I've seen done like flat shifting and rev matching, but it isn't a priority, just something I might play with down the track if the ECU was capable, but you're right, it does knock out other candidates. If I didn't know about these possible features, I wouldn't miss them so they're in the "nice to have" basket only. I have seen a platinum sport 1000 for $500 and a sm4 for $680 recently (without looms) so hard to argue with that value. Not forgetting tuning costs of course, but that's still all down the track.

Angus has been helping my son out getting his 206 GTI 180 up to scratch, helped me pick up the GTI6 and lives really close so we are already chatting and visiting! We might have to be pit crew for him soon. :)

I'm beginning to wonder if I might have one or two cams of yours in this gti6 Peter. Only having the inlet cover off so far, the inlet cam looks like a stock casting (with the lobes narrowing at the back), not a billet job so if it has non-stock cams as Paul (AutoParis) thinks, I guess they would be regrinds. I need to investigate more.

Hmm, atmospheric/manifold correction, I do have a sensor on the airbox, but wish I knew more about the setup.

cheers, Richard
 

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Richard Allen said:
I'm beginning to wonder if I might have one or two cams of yours in this gti6 Peter. Only having the inlet cover off so far, the inlet cam looks like a stock casting (with the lobes narrowing at the back), not a billet job so if it has non-stock cams as Paul (AutoParis) thinks, I guess they would be regrinds. I need to investigate more.
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You'd need to check the ends of the cams for a grind number, eg 435A
 
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