Aftermarket ecu advice required. Pug 306 gti6 "running" an EFI Technologies Euro 1

[Richard Allen]

Hi everyone,

I have just purchased a black '97 gti6 which has some fairly extensive engine mods including Jenvey throttle bodies which I believe were done by Auto Paris for a previous owner over 10 years ago. These included fitting a "Euro 1" Ecu made by Efi Technologies Srl. I have not owned a car with an aftermarket ecu before but have been looking for something my son (apprentice mechanic and 206 gti 180 owner) and I can learn about engine management with, while having fun with the car at events and not making it go all explodey. Despite indications that the Euro 1 is a well regarded unit, apparently I need an expensive interface or a tuner that has one to talk to it in order to do much with it which is not ideal considering this is a bit of a budget club car project.

The car hasn't had a lot of use in a good while so I don't know the state of the tune and I have yet to start tinkering, but it is currently not starting (though it was recently).

So I have a few questions for the more knowledgeable people out there :
- Does anyone know of a tuner in Melbourne that has the correct interface to talk to EFI Technologies ecus other than Auto Paris? I have spoken to Paul there, but I am keen for more options.
- Does anyone know an easy way to access diagnostic or logging functions on this unit without needing a proprietary interface?
- What are your opinions on whether is is worth persevering with a fairly inaccessible ecu and being locked in to a limited number of tuners (1?)
- I believe the tables on the Euro 1 ecus can be locked out by tuners, has anyone experienced this?
- Can anyone recommend a good alternative ecu for this use case? No need for e-throttle, vvt and a bunch of flashy stuff, but learning fuel trims and logging would be nice.
- Can anyone recommend a pug friendly dyno tuner that is skillful, humble and not hideously expensive in Melbourne?

FYI, The car has Jenvey cable throttle bodies, apparently cams and head work, a quaife lsd and according to an old post I found referring to it on here, was once a 220hp machine :0 but that was quite a few years ago...

For now, I'm just going to get it running and roadworthy for club reg and hold off on messing with the ECU if possible and avoid looking at the very sad paintwork, but if anyone has any advice on future engine management options for this, I'm all ears.

Also, thanks to PCCV member Angus for helping pick it up yesterday!

cheers,

Richard Allen

 

[jaahn]

Hi Allen just a suggestion as you wish your son to learn all about it, here is a DIY ECU that can suit any engine.
https://megasquirt.info/
It all looks very complicated but is simpler that it looks at first sight. Note i have not built one !
They come as kits only, or assembled electronics from some suppliers, and fully operational from some suppliers.They can cover fuel only and fuel and spark or every thing, all designed for home assembly and programming, and using standard sensors etc for inputs and O2 sensors for tuning.
jaahn

 

[Richard Allen]

Hi Jaahn,

Thanks for the advice, I am actually looking at the megasquirt as an option - I think I read on a post somewhere that PCCV member and general Pug Guru Graeme Wallace has used them also.

I am capable of soldering up and troubleshooting boards to some degree, but would probably rather a prebuilt cased and tested unit for reliability and the fact it looks more stock.

There is a prebuilt ms3 pro on marketplace at the moment with a loom for $1000 but I need to see if I can work with what I have first before I go throwing money into a project black hole...

cheers! Richard

 

[PeterT]

Megasquirt wouldn't be my first choice. You need to maintain the value in the car. I'm not saying your car isn't setup correctly, but it needs to have the following:
- crank sensor
- cam position sensor
- sequential fuel injection
- direct fire ignition

It's important that you can find a tuner to support your ecu. You'll find that a lot easier with common Australian made ecu's such as Motec, Haltech, Emtron and even older Autronic. You'll save on dyno/tuning time, simply because they're more familiar with the interface.

We've just upgraded Parry's supercharged 205 from an old Haltech to a new Emtron. The difference is staggering in terms of tunability.

I'd buy a $1000 Autronic SM4 before I bought a pre-built MS3. Autronic is still very much a functioning company. I think there's a bigger market in drones than cars.

 

[Richard Allen]

Thanks for the advice Peter,

I hear you about finding a friendly tuner being essential. I have been ringing around to see if I can find anyone that can talk to the Efi Technologies Euro 1, but so far only Auto Paris and possibly Coco Eurotech in Thornbury can do it.

I have not spoken to any tuners about megasquirt or speeduino style diy installations, but imagine they would much rather work with a more developed commercial setup (and would be cheaper doing it, so I hear you about this also). That said, I am basically a cheapskate and like to learn by doing things myself where possible, so am window shopping for second hand alternative in case I can't get it running well and easily the way it is. I'll add the Autronic to my list! Having a technical background, I would consider wiring an alternative ecu up and getting it running on a base map to take it to a tuner to get it running properly, but admit I have not done this before.

Do you know of any issues with the standard crank sensor signal with aftermarket ECUs on a 306? When I mentioned the possibility of changing the ecu to Paul at Auto Paris, he told me a Haltech (didn't say what model) would not work because it "could not make sense of the flywheel cutout" or something. I'm not sure what he means, but he elaborated saying that against advice, a customer fitted a Haltech to a Pug and it had issues at high rpm perhaps not knowing which direction the engine was rotating or something. I'm not sure I recall this correctly, but he seemed sure there was an issue with crank sensor reading on the Haltech which surprised me. I'm sure there would be a workaround like signal conditioning perhaps, worst case fitting a trigger wheel and sensor at the crank pulley end.

I am getting a little ahead of myself though. First I still need to do a thorough investigation of what I have and see if and how she runs!

cheers, Richard

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Megasquirt wouldn't be my first choice. You need to maintain the value in the car. I'm not saying your car isn't setup correctly, but it needs to have the following:
- crank sensor
- cam position sensor
- sequential fuel injection
- direct fire ignition

It's important that you can find a tuner to support your ecu. You'll find that a lot easier with common Australian made ecu's such as Motec, Haltech, Emtron and even older Autronic. You'll save on dyno/tuning time, simply because they're more familiar with the interface.

We've just upgraded Parry's supercharged 205 from an old Haltech to a new Emtron. The difference is staggering in terms of tunability.

I'd buy a $1000 Autronic SM4 before I bought a pre-built MS3. Autronic is still very much a functioning company. I think there's a bigger market in drones than cars.

I'm sure Megasquirt would have all of that these days. Megasquirt is great because it is driven by the actual users themselves heaps of information on line.

 

[Matthew]

ECU is not compatible with the pug standard 60/2 flywheel, stay away from it then, there is always the cheaper speeduino that does support it, is Oz designed and does all you want plus is tuner studio compatible as well from ground up so easy to get it tuned. Cheapoer than all mentioned here but a little more on the wild side of things.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Thanks for the advice Peter,

I hear you about finding a friendly tuner being essential. I have been ringing around to see if I can find anyone that can talk to the Efi Technologies Euro 1, but so far only Auto Paris and possibly Coco Eurotech in Thornbury can do it.

I have not spoken to any tuners about megasquirt or speeduino style diy installations, but imagine they would much rather work with a more developed commercial setup (and would be cheaper doing it, so I hear you about this also). That said, I am basically a cheapskate and like to learn by doing things myself where possible, so am window shopping for second hand alternative in case I can't get it running well and easily the way it is. I'll add the Autronic to my list! Having a technical background, I would consider wiring an alternative ecu up and getting it running on a base map to take it to a tuner to get it running properly, but admit I have not done this before.

Do you know of any issues with the standard crank sensor signal with aftermarket ECUs on a 306? When I mentioned the possibility of changing the ecu to Paul at Auto Paris, he told me a Haltech (didn't say what model) would not work because it "could not make sense of the flywheel cutout" or something. I'm not sure what he means, but he elaborated saying that against advice, a customer fitted a Haltech to a Pug and it had issues at high rpm perhaps not knowing which direction the engine was rotating or something. I'm not sure I recall this correctly, but he seemed sure there was an issue with crank sensor reading on the Haltech which surprised me. I'm sure there would be a workaround like signal conditioning perhaps, worst case fitting a trigger wheel and sensor at the crank pulley end.

I am getting a little ahead of myself though. First I still need to do a thorough investigation of what I have and see if and how she runs!

cheers, Richard

Checkered Tuning in Keysborough does my Megasquirt tuning, he has no problem with it. I'm using a basic MS3 set up, but have a look at their website or talk to DIY autotune in the US, you can go a lot further with it than I have. After all I am just using it on a 30 year old XU9J4.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

ECU is not compatible with the pug standard 60/2 flywheel, stay away from it then, there is always the cheaper speeduino that does support it, is Oz designed and does all you want plus is tuner studio compatible as well from ground up so easy to get it tuned. Cheapoer than all mentioned here but a little more on the wild side of things.

My Megasquirt runs on standard 60-2 flywheel.

 

[Matthew]

The posters special ecu not your megasquirt!

 

[Richard Allen]

The posters special ecu not your megasquirt!

Do you mean the Euro 1? The motor was built with that ECU some years ago and has been running it fine up until very recently. It's not running right now, but this is likely some other issue. I'm researching alternatives because it seems to be pretty inaccessible and tuners are scarce - not a good thing when the car needs diagnosis or tuning.

Do you mean another ECU is not compatible with the 60-2 flywheel?

 

[Richard Allen]

Checkered Tuning in Keysborough does my Megasquirt tuning, he has no problem with it. I'm using a basic MS3 set up, but have a look at their website or talk to DIY autotune in the US, you can go a lot further with it than I have. After all I am just using it on a 30 year old XU9J4.

Thanks Graham, that's good to know. My setup would be (is?) fairly basic also. The airbox over the trumpets is a frayed carbon fibre thing that looks possibly quite leaky, but I'm not planning on changing much else for a good while if at all since the ingredients seem to be pretty good. It's an XU10J4RS with Jenvey cable throttle bodies and supposedly some variety of cams and head work, though I don't know what. There's a tps and a map sensor (on the airbox, not on a 4 way manifold) no boosting planned, no e-throttle flat shift fancyness required.

 

[jaahn]

Allen do not be lead astray by comments here, even if they are well meaning.
You probably do not need to 'tune' the current ECU, if it was running in some reasonable manner previously. What you need to do is trouble shoot it to get it going. No need to get into the settings or the 'tune'. In fact that will risk f*cking up a good starting point to run it for a while. You do need to get an idea how the ECU works, what are the inputs and what are the outputs and if they are all working OK. Then you will know why it does not go just like a standard car, check the basics are all there and working. IMHO. Walk before you run !

When it is going ok and reliable for use, then might be the time to think how to improve it or smooth out the lumps or whatever. Then you might want someone to dyno it and tune it.

So my suggestion is to get some good basic information about how an ECU works and what all the bits do first. The Megasquirt forums are brimming with information. All ECUs really work similarly in principle with variations.
Jaahn

 

[Matthew]

I mean you non functioning ECU and whatever was mentioned to you that was not 60-2 computable, Megasquirt is good but getting old now, Speeduino is available on a board too from Melbourne and is fully tuner studio compliant so tunes just like Megasquirt, tuner knows no different they appear and work similarly although I suspect Speeduino is more flexible and is certainly cheaper.,

 

[Richard Allen]

I mean you non functioning ECU and whatever was mentioned to you that was not 60-2 computable, Megasquirt is good but getting old now, Speeduino is available on a board too from Melbourne and is fully tuner studio compliant so tunes just like Megasquirt, tuner knows no different they appear and work similarly although I suspect Speeduino is more flexible and is certainly cheaper.,

Thx Matthew, I have a workmate with a "Dropbear" speeduino he wants to setup on his V8 VR Commodore with a friendly tuner so I'll be seeing how he goes with that.

 

[AlexB]

I am getting a little ahead of myself though. First I still need to do a thorough investigation of what I have and see if and how she runs!

cheers, Richard

I'd start with checking the timing belt isn't broken, followed by a compression test.

 

[Richard Allen]

Allen do not be lead astray by comments here, even if they are well meaning.
You probably do not need to 'tune' the current ECU, if it was running in some reasonable manner previously. What you need to do is trouble shoot it to get it going. No need to get into the settings or the 'tune'. In fact that will risk f*cking up a good starting point to run it for a while. You do need to get an idea how the ECU works, what are the inputs and what are the outputs and if they are all working OK. Then you will know why it does not go just like a standard car, check the basics are all there and working. IMHO. Walk before you run !

When it is going ok and reliable for use, then might be the time to think how to improve it or smooth out the lumps or whatever. Then you might want someone to dyno it and tune it.

So my suggestion is to get some good basic information about how an ECU works and what all the bits do first. The Megasquirt forums are brimming with information. All ECUs really work similarly in principle with variations.
Jaahn

Thanks Jaahn,

All great advice here.

Certainly I'm keen to get it going as is and make the most of the work that has gone into it already. I don't want to junk the current tune and ecu really unless I have too much trouble or expense getting into it if I need to make changes. It's likely the starting issues are minor, but it has prompted me to consider what I would do if I need to do something like recalibrate the throttle position sensor or refresh the tune on the Euro 1 because the last time this was done may have been more than 10 years ago when it was built. But I'm getting ahead of myself again! Finding someone to do this and the ongoing costs of maintaining this system vs starting fresh with something more accessible is something I can't help considering at the outset.

If anyone has one of these ecus or knows a tuner who can deal with them, I'm still all ears. So far I only have 1 confirmed option.

All the advice from everyone so far has been great and is useful for anyone else in a similar position, so I want to thank everyone who has replied and adds more to the discussion. I'll definitely update here when I get it going hopefully this weekend!

Pic of car attached from it's best angle (the non-faded side) FYI

cheers,

Richard Allen

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Calibrating TPS on the Megasquirt takes about 10 seconds. Megasquirt is being continually upgraded by the users.

 

[PeterT]

I'll add the Autronic to my list!

Further to this, Richard Aubert (Mr Autronic) is a Peugeot fanatic and owns one of the most incredible 505's you'll ever see.

And poor man always pays twice.

Your current setup is missing the cam sensor. So definitely only a less than optimal setup, running wasted spark and multipoint injection.

 

[robs]

... Megasquirt is being continually upgraded by the users.

I don't think this is the case anymore Graham. The core code for MS2 and MS3 is no longer available to the public. Users might have some input to their "plug & play" packages, but the days of them taking code contributions seem to have passed.


Jaahn's advice seems right to me. I gave my brother a hand installing a $3k Haltech in his Nissan and, in the process, discovered the bit of dodgy wiring that meant his old EMS setup was out of order. Haltech was nice and simple to install, but we had to fix up the wiring first anyway.


If you then decide to go ahead and upgrade your ECU, here are my thoughts on that.

As far as *learning* about it goes, I think a Megasquirt of some flavour is your best choice. You learn a lot in the process of installation, and you also learn a lot just reading in the msextra forums. My brother's Haltech simply worked. Plug it in. Drive to the dyno place. Not much learnt.

In their range, the cheapest is the Microsquirt, which is pre-assembled, compact, has a nice connector, but limited expansion. For a fuel-only setup, it'd be my choice. I don't think there is a supported way of doing sequential injection with it though.

Megasquirt 2 can be bought pre-assembled, though it's kind of fun soldering up your own. It's a bigger box and more expensive than the Microsquirt, but it runs the same firmware. Two advantages: (1) more room for internal electronic customisation (e.g. sequential injection); (2)you can take out the MS2 processor and replace it with an MS3 processor board (currently US$230). I'm tempted to do this myself, at least for one of my cars.

Megasquirt 3 can also be bought pre-assembled. Costs a fair bit, but it's capable of doing everything you could want, and teaching you all about it as you fall into every trap along the way!

Have fun,

Rob.