807 11 ~ Electric coolant pump?

[RINGER]

My light 15 water pump drive pulley looks like it's let go on the bearing shaft on the 807 11 engine & into the radiator.
Clearly the pulleys are out of alignment with the water pump one moving nearly 25mm.
Big coolant puddle on the garage floor after coming home from a long drive yesterday.
Perhaps the Austin 1800 type radiator with huge electric fan temperature switched on & off is repairable ~ BUT ~
Will fabricate a new radiator.
May make a bigger capacity 3 or 4 core radiator to fit in the rather small space. The one, now ruined, always kept cool about 90*C even with A/C on.

Some small work ahead, not too hard, but will ask the question 'has anyone fitted an electric water/coolant pump to handle all coolant flow on this or a similar engine with success? What type unit is suitable?

Thinking of doing away with the original water pump as such & directly driving 120A alternator from a smaller fabricated cam drive pulley.

 

[driven]

Would not start engine.
Just repair the water pump, easy.

 

[Bustamif]

Ringer, I have two 1600 engines, not 807, 841/2 running electric water pumps from Davies Craig. Very reliable and more efficient than mechanical.
The function which flows coolant though the alloy head for a controlled shut down after the engine is switched off is a big plus to extend the life on these old engines.
I'll take a few pics of the installations if you are interested.
One car is my 1600 Gordini which recently out ran a few XU1 Toranas, V6 capris and current 2 Litre 4 valve cars at Eastern Creek HSRCA event.

 

[COL]

Ringer, I have two 1600 engines, not 807, 841/2 running electric water pumps from Davies Craig. Very reliable and more efficient than mechanical.
The function which flows coolant though the alloy head for a controlled shut down after the engine is switched off is a big plus to extend the life on these old engines.
I'll take a few pics of the installations if you are interested.
One car is my 1600 Gordini which recently out ran a few XU1 Toranas, V6 capris and current 2 Litre 4 valve cars at Eastern Creek HSRCA event.

I would love to see a few pics of your electric water pump installation

 

[4cvgordini]

I have fitted a D-C electric pump as well. In my case, it is to my 4CVG (R5 Alpine/Gordini) engine. The manual water pump impeller was removed by my mechanic & some internal blanking was, as I recall, carried out to ensure flow was as it should be. Some rewiring for the computer controller (& a mount in the cabin for it), popping it somewhere in the engine compartment that facilitates plumbing had to be done & that's it.

I think that they are a "good thing". Benefits are:
- the pump flows intermittently initially to hasten warm up;
- it flows at a constant rate which optimises heat transfer in the radiator at all engine speeds (as opposed to too slowly when stuck in traffic & too fast when cruising at high speed);
- it circulates for a minute or so after engine switch off, thus helping to dissipate "hot spots";
- it can act as an electric fan controller; &
- as it eliminates one task from a driven belt, there's a (no doubt minor but the less powerful the engine, the larger a percentage of the whole it is) power gain.

I had one computer controller replaced because of, as I recall, the voltage in my system being slightly out of its tolerance range. The replacement was a couple of months out of warranty but free & I gather that current computers have a wider tolerance range.

Tle 4CVG is one of my 4 "daily driver"toys (not a "special occasions only" one) & is used quite a bit. No further problems in the several years since being fitted.

I'd do it.

cheers! Peter

 

[RINGER]

Ringer, I have two 1600 engines, not 807, 841/2 running electric water pumps from Davies Craig. Very reliable and more efficient than mechanical.
The function which flows coolant though the alloy head for a controlled shut down after the engine is switched off is a big plus to extend the life on these old engines.
I'll take a few pics of the installations if you are interested.
One car is my 1600 Gordini which recently out ran a few XU1 Toranas, V6 capris and current 2 Litre 4 valve cars at Eastern Creek HSRCA event.

Please do ~ am pulling the radiator today & am interested in your & Peter's replies. Seems many of these type electric pumps Bosch etc. have about 25mm in & out & lazy me didn't want to get into the maths & flow rates etc.
Why I asked here whether anyone had got into this.
If so I want in & out diameters on the new radiator to suit.
What kind of flow rate is considered adequate?

This car is my daily driver I will make up a stainless steel routing box to bolt in place of the water pump.

Peter please give us more info or pics on your installation as well as I'm sure many can't get or don't want to pay the price for a new alloy water pump.

I paid the price & it only got me a couple of thousand K's.
Many thanks guys, John.

 

[COL]

Hi John

I would do some maths before proceeding with the electric water pump conversion. An electric water pump kit is going to cost around $500 + installation, and if you need a bigger alternator you need to factor in that. I would say a 120 Amp alternator is a little bit of an over kill unless you have added lots of electrical load to the car.

The pulley flange on the water pump is usually a tight press fit, as is the impeller on the inside of the water pump, you will need to investigate why it has move forward. I know there is different pulley flanges for these pumps and I have found that the bore in the flanges varies in size with the different versions. If the pulley flange has come loose for some reason, I know doubt there is a Loctite product that can be used to attache the pulley flange to the shaft permanently.

As for the radiator its probably un-repairable, so maybe a modern aluminium cross flow radiator would be smaller and more efficient than an old large Austin 1800 radiator. I have an 807 motor in my R12 with a standard R17TL radiator fitted that I have pulled the end tanks off and cleaned out the core. I also added an R16 thermostat switch at the same time and a Davies Craig electric fan from my very first R12. I have also wired an indicator light for when the fan is running in the dash. My fan hardly ever runs even on hots days down here.

These are just a few of my thoughts after re-reading your first post in this thread.

 

[RINGER]

120amp.alternator is for TS Astra electric power steering pump plus other modern electrical equipment on this vehicle. I am an experienced mechanic after info on others experience with stuff I've not previously been involved with. All help appreciated.

 

[Bustamif]

Ringer, all the tech info is on Davies Craig website including installation instructions. They are based in Melbourne so you can actually call by phone and speak to an engineer if you need more info. Just remember, it is not all about flow rate, cooling relates to how the heat is removed from the coolant in your particular engine. I have had issues with old belt driven pumps where the water flows too much or the thermostat is too restrictive.

Remember, you don't have to worry about pulley sizes or thermostats. The flow is electronically controlled by the pump management system to achieve maximum efficiency in the flow rate for whatever radiator and coolant capacity you have.

One of my installations is daily driver only and the other is used on the race track. Same type of system for both applications

Both my installations will be difficult to photograph in regard to the important bit, ie the in and out pipes to the head. The Floride has the same head as yours, I cut, shut and rewelded an old water pump. However on the Floride this is at the flywheel end about 1 inch from the fuel tank so it will be hard to photograph in any detail. The location of the EWP. swirl pot and hoses will be shown in the pics. I will take some pics this afternoon.

 

[RINGER]

 

[RINGER]

One can see from the pics exactly what happened it is repairable fairly easily but as I'm doing away with the mechanical water pump I will get a custom radiator as well to suit the electric one. The pulley worked it's way off about 12mm can see shaft to flange movement in one of the pics. This was a brand new Quinton Hazell pump fitted, only mod I did was remove some ribbing on the outer housing so original flange.

 

[Bowie]

Ah bugger look at that.

That elec water pump solution sounds great! No more thermostat, and I'd suggest it would be running minimally, along with the fan off at highway speeds? Captain Planet approves with that efficient use of limited petrol. End it frees up you to choose a radiator that fits and the pump / fan will run to work it out.

What a great little sub system.

 

[bluey504]

Have thought about this for my 'other' car, cough Mazda RX2. The problem with a rotary motor is that you always have a hot zone, the ignition/expansion sector. The only feasible work around is a variable speed DC motor so there is always coolant flow not a sporadic On/Off function in addition to the thermo syphon effect found in all ICE motors.
The total electric control of the system allows for a rapid/override fan for the cool down lap, Rally control/transport stage scenario.
Brendan.

 

[RINGER]

Ordered 4 row mini sport aluminium radiator that will fit & a little bit of mod plus tig welding outlets to suit + Craig Davis 80l/min pump - so may get out of this for about $500 & hopefully not have any future coolant issues.
Will advise with pics & method. Thanks JG.

 

[Bustamif]

Some pics as promised.
The first one shows cool water, blue arrows, from radiator, into EWP, 90 degree bend behind swirl pot then into the head via cood water inlet pipe.

Second pic shows more detail of the swirl pot. Note the hot water out of the head goes to the top of swirl pot. The swirl pot removes froth and bubbles for more efficient coolant to the radiator. Coolant exits the bottom of the swirl pot to pipe to the radiator.

3rd pic shows what's left of the modified mechanical pump with an inlet pipe welded on. This pic is looking at the carby side of head.

4th Pic shows the exhaust side of the head.

This last one is another general view

 

[Bowie]

Thanks for sharing that. Neat little system it is.

 

[OddFireV6]

Might add my experience an with electric water pump. Since I fitted a 3 litre v6 to my 504 I have used one of these pumps for around 10 years. The first one failed after 4 years, the seal failed and the electric motor then failed. Otherwise it’s been a great solution. I only have a 55amp alternator and it also runs the two cooling fans with no problem.
In winter the pump only pulses so the heater needs another little pump to circulate coolant through just the heater core.
in the photo you can see the pump mounted to the timing case.

 

[COL]

Might add my experience an with electric water pump. Since I fitted a 3 litre v6 to my 504 I have used one of these pumps for around 10 years. The first one failed after 4 years, the seal failed and the electric motor then failed. Otherwise it’s been a great solution. I only have a 55amp alternator and it also runs the two cooling fans with no problem.
In winter the pump only pulses so the heater needs another little pump to circulate coolant through just the heater core.
in the photo you can see the pump mounted to the timing case. Yes the double chevron indicates where the motor came from.

Thats is interesting that you need another pump for the heater. Out of interest what sort of pump did you use for the heater circuit?

On another thought one could also control the the pump with a temp controller and also do away with the heater valve.

 

[Bustamif]

Thats is interesting that you need another pump for the heater. Out of interest what sort of pump did you use for the heater circuit?

On another thought one could also control the the pump with a temp controller and also do away with the heater valve.

Good point about the heater valve, I'll have to think about that upgrade.

 

[OddFireV6]

Col

From an e34, 5 Series BMW heater, it was secondhand. Yes a variable speed controler could be used to modulate heat level with the secondary pump. I would still want a shut off valve though so that no hot water gets into the heater in summer.