Agreed, and remember to wear breathing/ hand protection with sceney's or do a stock take on finger tips after finishing.
69 404 restoration
- Thread starter Dano
- Start date
Agreed, and remember to wear breathing/ hand protection with sceney's or do a stock take on finger tips after finishing.
Started tinkering with the wiring looms this weekend. Think I have replicating the numbering system and white terminal ends sorted. More on that as they progress.
Being a bit of a Bowerbird, I have not thrown anything out and I have collected a few extra electrical objects since starting the reno. This includes two extra complete wiring looms of which none are identical. Each one has had extra wires added for one thing or another. From where they are located within the looms, I assume they are for things like tacho’s, driving/fog lights, radio/CD players and then there are the ones that have just been cut off, sidelights, electric fan etc.
Not having the perfect eyesight of days gone by, the two wiring schematics I have are rather small and hard to follow. Solution, scan the diagram, save it as a PDF and then have it printed poster size. 600 x 600mm, works just fine. (I think the term at work is called PD) Being colour-blind does not help either, so a multi-meter was used to help trace wires.
Which loom to use? Simple, sit on the floor with the enlarged schematic and record all the numbers that are present in their rough location on a sheet of paper. Determine what is what according to the schematic and then identify the missing numbers accordingly.
As it turns out I have two ’70 looms and one ’69 version, which is the original from the car. Originally, I was just going to put the best one back in, but after inspecting them and determining the terminals, wire and insulating rubber have all perished over time, it was decided to make new ones. Sometime back, I bought a complete NOS under bonnet/engine bay loom.
Well that takes care of one-fifth of the looms required. There are five main looms in total; the engine bay, two under the dashboard, fuse-box to left tail light and then the one between the taillights that includes the number plate light and the fuel sender unit.
After determining which looms to use, the two under dashboard looms were laid out and pinned onto a sheet of ply. The numbers and names of the components were transcribed onto the sheet of ply. This was done twice for each loom. The plan is to remove the tape/binding around the existing looms and then remove one wire at a time. Measure it, cut a new wire of the same or similar colour and place it into the empty pin layout. Each cable will be cut with an addition 150mm, the reason for this is two-fold; if I stuff crimping/soldering (the latter being the preferred option) a terminal, it will not be short and the extra will also allow for pull back created when re-wrapping the with insulation tape. The tension placed the tape, when pulling it tight, will/could have the effect of trying to contract back to its original size, thus causing some shrinkage in the loom. This advice came to me from a retired Honda Racing engineer. Apparently, sometime back when building a new race bike, their loom ended up being too short. So, extra length and fit the terminal last will be the way I proceed.
Talk later,
Dano
Being a bit of a Bowerbird, I have not thrown anything out and I have collected a few extra electrical objects since starting the reno. This includes two extra complete wiring looms of which none are identical. Each one has had extra wires added for one thing or another. From where they are located within the looms, I assume they are for things like tacho’s, driving/fog lights, radio/CD players and then there are the ones that have just been cut off, sidelights, electric fan etc.
Not having the perfect eyesight of days gone by, the two wiring schematics I have are rather small and hard to follow. Solution, scan the diagram, save it as a PDF and then have it printed poster size. 600 x 600mm, works just fine. (I think the term at work is called PD) Being colour-blind does not help either, so a multi-meter was used to help trace wires.
Which loom to use? Simple, sit on the floor with the enlarged schematic and record all the numbers that are present in their rough location on a sheet of paper. Determine what is what according to the schematic and then identify the missing numbers accordingly.
As it turns out I have two ’70 looms and one ’69 version, which is the original from the car. Originally, I was just going to put the best one back in, but after inspecting them and determining the terminals, wire and insulating rubber have all perished over time, it was decided to make new ones. Sometime back, I bought a complete NOS under bonnet/engine bay loom.
Well that takes care of one-fifth of the looms required. There are five main looms in total; the engine bay, two under the dashboard, fuse-box to left tail light and then the one between the taillights that includes the number plate light and the fuel sender unit.
After determining which looms to use, the two under dashboard looms were laid out and pinned onto a sheet of ply. The numbers and names of the components were transcribed onto the sheet of ply. This was done twice for each loom. The plan is to remove the tape/binding around the existing looms and then remove one wire at a time. Measure it, cut a new wire of the same or similar colour and place it into the empty pin layout. Each cable will be cut with an addition 150mm, the reason for this is two-fold; if I stuff crimping/soldering (the latter being the preferred option) a terminal, it will not be short and the extra will also allow for pull back created when re-wrapping the with insulation tape. The tension placed the tape, when pulling it tight, will/could have the effect of trying to contract back to its original size, thus causing some shrinkage in the loom. This advice came to me from a retired Honda Racing engineer. Apparently, sometime back when building a new race bike, their loom ended up being too short. So, extra length and fit the terminal last will be the way I proceed.
Talk later,
Dano
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If you need cable, this mob sell 100m reels in many colors and the cable is 105C, main rated.
Building Wire
I've not purchased cable but have dealt with them for enclosures et al.
Remember the cable size they state is the actual copper cross sectional area and not the sheath diameter, as is common with automotive suppliers.
Building Wire
I've not purchased cable but have dealt with them for enclosures et al.
Remember the cable size they state is the actual copper cross sectional area and not the sheath diameter, as is common with automotive suppliers.
Good site. Many thanks
Need BIG diameter lengths to do some 4CV rewiring ( 6 volts )
Andrew
Need BIG diameter lengths to do some 4CV rewiring ( 6 volts )
Andrew
They have a cable of cross section 10mm^2 , good for around 80 amps.
wiring
Nothing exceeds like excess
Main thing I need it for is to run two trunk lines from battery to front lamps and earthing block to minimise voltage drop. Front lamps should pull a bit over 20 Amps so this should be overkill, which never hurts when volts are short ( although the price of the full reel is eye watering, but copper not cheap)
The other things up the front should not draw much ( wipers, indicators, horn, ? radio ) but it IS nice to see and be seen
6V alternator arrived this week.
Thanks again
Andrew
Nothing exceeds like excess
Main thing I need it for is to run two trunk lines from battery to front lamps and earthing block to minimise voltage drop. Front lamps should pull a bit over 20 Amps so this should be overkill, which never hurts when volts are short ( although the price of the full reel is eye watering, but copper not cheap)
The other things up the front should not draw much ( wipers, indicators, horn, ? radio ) but it IS nice to see and be seen
6V alternator arrived this week.
Thanks again
Andrew
Great to see you back on this Dan! I should ask for my 404C thread to be placed into this forum.....
The new looms have been laid out and taped/bound.
The initial attempt to try to replicate the white terminals and numbering system was a fail (First Attempt in Learning) There were two main reasons. Firstly, the labels used were white PVC and not clear as thought. Secondly, the surface although allegedly laser printer-able would not absorb the ink. The ink dried in the copying process, but smudged/ran when heat to activate the heat shrink encasing the label. A friend is printing Mark II, so time will tell.
Besides the original cables being brittle etc., some dodgy wiring was found within the bindings.
Sourcing terminal ends has also been problematic. Have had difficulty sourcing longish 4mm round, male and female ends. The same goes for the flat 6mm wide males, especially the thin version that double up in one slot on some of the multi-terminal blocks. After suffering the usual non-committal or unhelpful customer service from most suppliers, I found the sales guy at Rapid Cables – Brendale, extremely helpful. Still did not quite get what I was looking for, but they are close.
Until a couple of wiring grommets arrive from Serie04, the cables cannot be finished.
The initial attempt to try to replicate the white terminals and numbering system was a fail (First Attempt in Learning) There were two main reasons. Firstly, the labels used were white PVC and not clear as thought. Secondly, the surface although allegedly laser printer-able would not absorb the ink. The ink dried in the copying process, but smudged/ran when heat to activate the heat shrink encasing the label. A friend is printing Mark II, so time will tell.
Besides the original cables being brittle etc., some dodgy wiring was found within the bindings.
Sourcing terminal ends has also been problematic. Have had difficulty sourcing longish 4mm round, male and female ends. The same goes for the flat 6mm wide males, especially the thin version that double up in one slot on some of the multi-terminal blocks. After suffering the usual non-committal or unhelpful customer service from most suppliers, I found the sales guy at Rapid Cables – Brendale, extremely helpful. Still did not quite get what I was looking for, but they are close.
Until a couple of wiring grommets arrive from Serie04, the cables cannot be finished.
Very good Dano did the length change much when you bound the looms
Marty
Marty
Hi Marty,
Yes, they did a bit, maybe 30mm on the shorter ones. The long one which runs from the fuse -box back to the tail-lights, pulled back maybe 50mm.
With hindsight, I think I was being over cautious as there was plenty of slack in the original cables. Anyhow, better to be safe then sorry.
The template sheets are yours, if you want to go down the same track.
Dano
Yes, they did a bit, maybe 30mm on the shorter ones. The long one which runs from the fuse -box back to the tail-lights, pulled back maybe 50mm.
With hindsight, I think I was being over cautious as there was plenty of slack in the original cables. Anyhow, better to be safe then sorry.
The template sheets are yours, if you want to go down the same track.
Dano
Dano,
Consider cable tieing or better still heat shrinking the ends of you looms. From hard experience the glue on the loom tape loosens in time and the tape tends to unravel. And retaping onto a sticky surface is not all that satisfactory.
Especially in the engine bay and oil laden locations.
Consider cable tieing or better still heat shrinking the ends of you looms. From hard experience the glue on the loom tape loosens in time and the tape tends to unravel. And retaping onto a sticky surface is not all that satisfactory.
Especially in the engine bay and oil laden locations.
Thanks Dano hang on to the sheets I would be silly not to take up your offer.
Moved onto the upholstery and seat frames, whilst waiting for the cable labels.
The back swab was redone as the glue used to hold the foam to the back of the vinyl, dried/bonded leaving a strange pattern line in the middle section. Some said, “Leave it, it looks OK”. However, it was standing out like the proverbial tree in a desert, to me.
Sometime ago, I sold my first sewing machine. Although it was an industrial machine, it was struggling with the vinyl. The new one is an older Singer, but it is a genuine industrial machine with a stepper foot. Before it could be used, the machine required a good service. At the same time, the original motor was replaced with a servomotor. Massive difference in power and usability. The servomotor is just so much easier to control. Mind you though, I still keep the pinkies well away from the needle. After servicing and replacing the motor, the technician demonstrated how it would go through eight layers of vinyl.
Anyhow.
The front seat frames have been dismantled and the old paint is being stripped away. Like the rest of the car, there is rust all over the frames. Albeit surface rust, but rust none the less.
The intertwined coil springs that gave the back support were sagging and rusting.
Tried in vain to source the springs, all to no avail. Many offers to re-manufacture them, but at a huge cost. Eventually found a couple very friendly and helpful people at Carleton Upholstery. One was a South African who had a Peugeot back home… Apparently, the new way to make the support is to make a canvas trampoline. As said before, they were so helpful, they told me how to lay up and stitch the canvas, were to buy the canvas and what spring clips would be best; as the original staples/clips will have to be replaced with something with a little give in them. The interlocking springs were the original give mechanism.
Cheers,
Dano
The back swab was redone as the glue used to hold the foam to the back of the vinyl, dried/bonded leaving a strange pattern line in the middle section. Some said, “Leave it, it looks OK”. However, it was standing out like the proverbial tree in a desert, to me.
Sometime ago, I sold my first sewing machine. Although it was an industrial machine, it was struggling with the vinyl. The new one is an older Singer, but it is a genuine industrial machine with a stepper foot. Before it could be used, the machine required a good service. At the same time, the original motor was replaced with a servomotor. Massive difference in power and usability. The servomotor is just so much easier to control. Mind you though, I still keep the pinkies well away from the needle. After servicing and replacing the motor, the technician demonstrated how it would go through eight layers of vinyl.
Anyhow.
The front seat frames have been dismantled and the old paint is being stripped away. Like the rest of the car, there is rust all over the frames. Albeit surface rust, but rust none the less.
The intertwined coil springs that gave the back support were sagging and rusting.
Tried in vain to source the springs, all to no avail. Many offers to re-manufacture them, but at a huge cost. Eventually found a couple very friendly and helpful people at Carleton Upholstery. One was a South African who had a Peugeot back home… Apparently, the new way to make the support is to make a canvas trampoline. As said before, they were so helpful, they told me how to lay up and stitch the canvas, were to buy the canvas and what spring clips would be best; as the original staples/clips will have to be replaced with something with a little give in them. The interlocking springs were the original give mechanism.
Cheers,
Dano
Little more progress today.
Both front seat frames were stripped back to bare metal, in preparation for repainting. I think I have said it before, but I am convinced this car at some stage has sat in water. The places I've found mud and rust are numerous. One of the base, frame tubes had solid mud packed inside. The rust although minor, was beyond surface rust.
It was a messy job, requiring lots of elbow grease and a good coating of paint stripper. The blistered paint and remaining stripper were cleaned off with steel wool, followed by a wash down with gun cleaner.
A final buff with the pneumatic wire wheel and then a coat POR's equivalent of rust converter.
Two coats of paint tomorrow and another job ticked off.
Both front seat frames were stripped back to bare metal, in preparation for repainting. I think I have said it before, but I am convinced this car at some stage has sat in water. The places I've found mud and rust are numerous. One of the base, frame tubes had solid mud packed inside. The rust although minor, was beyond surface rust.
It was a messy job, requiring lots of elbow grease and a good coating of paint stripper. The blistered paint and remaining stripper were cleaned off with steel wool, followed by a wash down with gun cleaner.
A final buff with the pneumatic wire wheel and then a coat POR's equivalent of rust converter.
Two coats of paint tomorrow and another job ticked off.
Started replacing the back seat springs the other day. Unlike the front seats, the frames for the rear cushions are in pretty good condition. Not sure, what was used to coat them with originally, but it seems to have preserved the wire frames well. It was decided not to strip the frames, if whatever it is has lasted 50 plus years, it can stay there a little longer. ‘If it ain’t broke, don’t touch it”. I did give them a light over spray of etch primer to be sure though. (I can’t help myself.)
To put it politely, the seat springs had seen better days. There was limited tension in the wire and some had actually sagged inwardly.
Replacing the swab springs was straightforward. After the first couple, it was plain sailing. The difference in tension is amazing. Granted the new springs are slightly thicker in diameter, but even so, the end result/improvement is noticeable.
The backrest section was another matter. As with the swab springs, these too were shot. Interestingly, the wire size in the backrest is a lighter gauge. As I only have the heavier gauge wire, the rest springs will be a bit firmer.
Unlike the swab springs, which have a simple curve shape the backrest springs have two tight folds at the top. The two inner ones either side of the armrest have an additional fold at the bottom.
3mm springs steel wire is hard enough to bend let alone fold it back on itself twice in a 200 mm section. After trying to fold/bend the wire and keep it straight where required, for nearly an hour I gave up. During this time, I stabbed my fingers a couple of times with screwdrivers that were being used as levers, as well as pinching the fingers with multigrips etc., when they slipped off because too much pressure was being applied. I was stuffed on how to successfully bend the wire and not inflict any more pain on the digits. So loaded up the wire and a sample spring and went to visit a good friend, who owns a general engineering and fabrication shop. Within minutes, he had welded up a jig out of some scrap 3mm plate sections. With the jig firmly secured in a vice the levers, i.e. screwdrivers and small pinch bars were used to try to bend the wire. They still slipped. He then came up with the idea of a slotted piece of flat bar placed over the loop, and then rotated to twist the spring. It worked brilliantly. The man is a wizard; everyone needs a mate like Manny.
http://youtu.be/o9WQdjFqyuk
Another obstacle encountered was, as the coil of wire was getting smaller the curvature radius was getting tighter. This meant that every section had to have the curve section flattened out. Again, this involves using the jig and slightly releasing the angle and tension at every ‘U’ bend in the section.
Inserted the front swab springs as well. They look a little high in the middle. They could be shortened by half a ‘U’ section if required. I’ll cross that bridge when fitting the upholstery. If it looks wrong, it isn’t too hard to rip them out and make the modifications. When the second coat of paint is applied to the front frames, the springs will get a thin coating as well.
All up, I’m happy with the result. Another learning moment in the quest to get the car finished.
To put it politely, the seat springs had seen better days. There was limited tension in the wire and some had actually sagged inwardly.
Replacing the swab springs was straightforward. After the first couple, it was plain sailing. The difference in tension is amazing. Granted the new springs are slightly thicker in diameter, but even so, the end result/improvement is noticeable.
The backrest section was another matter. As with the swab springs, these too were shot. Interestingly, the wire size in the backrest is a lighter gauge. As I only have the heavier gauge wire, the rest springs will be a bit firmer.
Unlike the swab springs, which have a simple curve shape the backrest springs have two tight folds at the top. The two inner ones either side of the armrest have an additional fold at the bottom.
3mm springs steel wire is hard enough to bend let alone fold it back on itself twice in a 200 mm section. After trying to fold/bend the wire and keep it straight where required, for nearly an hour I gave up. During this time, I stabbed my fingers a couple of times with screwdrivers that were being used as levers, as well as pinching the fingers with multigrips etc., when they slipped off because too much pressure was being applied. I was stuffed on how to successfully bend the wire and not inflict any more pain on the digits. So loaded up the wire and a sample spring and went to visit a good friend, who owns a general engineering and fabrication shop. Within minutes, he had welded up a jig out of some scrap 3mm plate sections. With the jig firmly secured in a vice the levers, i.e. screwdrivers and small pinch bars were used to try to bend the wire. They still slipped. He then came up with the idea of a slotted piece of flat bar placed over the loop, and then rotated to twist the spring. It worked brilliantly. The man is a wizard; everyone needs a mate like Manny.
Another obstacle encountered was, as the coil of wire was getting smaller the curvature radius was getting tighter. This meant that every section had to have the curve section flattened out. Again, this involves using the jig and slightly releasing the angle and tension at every ‘U’ bend in the section.
Inserted the front swab springs as well. They look a little high in the middle. They could be shortened by half a ‘U’ section if required. I’ll cross that bridge when fitting the upholstery. If it looks wrong, it isn’t too hard to rip them out and make the modifications. When the second coat of paint is applied to the front frames, the springs will get a thin coating as well.
All up, I’m happy with the result. Another learning moment in the quest to get the car finished.
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- Aug 2, 2000
- Messages
- 11,497
Has anyone tried to put shoulder support into a 404 seat? The base of the driver seat in my 1966 model has been rebuilt and is way too high and too soft as well, seems to be common when these early model seats are rebuilt. When combined with no shoulder support you float around, most uncomfortable. Not just in comparison with later model seats such as S2 405 as the 403 feels fine with well worn standard seats.
At that stage 505 gti seats become an attractive and cheaper replacement. They do fit, with little trimming of the seat support boxes.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2000
- Messages
- 11,497
No, been there done that, they don't suit a 404 which has an offset seat, also this car is totally original and I want to change as little as possible.
Collected the re-dipped panels from the sandblasters yesterday. This time they came back as bare metal. With the humidity in Brisbane over the last few days, it did not take long for the surface rust to start appearing. These came out of the dip tank this morning (Friday) and were collected within the hour.
Prior to collection, the following coatings were purchased to treat/preserve the metal.
Protec - Metal conditioner
Phosphoric acid, solution 7664-38-2 10
2-butoxyethanol 111-76-2 10
Isopropyl alcohol 67-63-0
EASY PHOS
Material Safety Data Sheet
Page 2 of 7 Issue date:March 2014
Hazardous according to criteria of Worksafe Australia
N-BUTYL ACETATE 30 to 60% 123-86-4
IMS 95% 30 to 60% 108-10-1
PHOSPHORIC ACID (Below Cut off) Less than 1% 7664-38-2
The metal conditioner was applied using heavy duty scouring pads. It removed the rust and hand marks immediately. After cleaning and drying, the Easy Phos was applied. I am lead to believe that it will last for quite some time, before the primer has to be applied. That will not be a problem as the plan is to two pack prime them on Boxing Day.
Panels after treatment
I had to laugh, when talking to the guy who did the work. He was complaining about how the black stuff just stuck to everything. It was then I told him that they had originally painted them. Whoops, no more grizzling… Not looking forward to doing the shell by hand.
The panel above, got the lightest shower of mist on it. It changed to this colour in minutes!!!
Having no neighbours on one side, means I have the perfect washing, spraying .... area. The old ARC metal fence makes the perfect drying rack.
Cheers
Dano
PS: being politically correct
Happy Holiday, Festive Season.
Ah stuff it, call it as it is, Happy Christmas to all. May your God, whoever that may be keep you and your families safe.
Dano
Prior to collection, the following coatings were purchased to treat/preserve the metal.
Protec - Metal conditioner
Phosphoric acid, solution 7664-38-2 10
2-butoxyethanol 111-76-2 10
Isopropyl alcohol 67-63-0
EASY PHOS
Material Safety Data Sheet
Page 2 of 7 Issue date:March 2014
Hazardous according to criteria of Worksafe Australia
N-BUTYL ACETATE 30 to 60% 123-86-4
IMS 95% 30 to 60% 108-10-1
PHOSPHORIC ACID (Below Cut off) Less than 1% 7664-38-2
The metal conditioner was applied using heavy duty scouring pads. It removed the rust and hand marks immediately. After cleaning and drying, the Easy Phos was applied. I am lead to believe that it will last for quite some time, before the primer has to be applied. That will not be a problem as the plan is to two pack prime them on Boxing Day.
Panels after treatment
I had to laugh, when talking to the guy who did the work. He was complaining about how the black stuff just stuck to everything. It was then I told him that they had originally painted them. Whoops, no more grizzling… Not looking forward to doing the shell by hand.
The panel above, got the lightest shower of mist on it. It changed to this colour in minutes!!!
Having no neighbours on one side, means I have the perfect washing, spraying .... area. The old ARC metal fence makes the perfect drying rack.
Cheers
Dano
PS: being politically correct
Happy Holiday, Festive Season.
Ah stuff it, call it as it is, Happy Christmas to all. May your God, whoever that may be keep you and your families safe.
Dano
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