'62 404 clutch won't fully disengage

S

swift-au

New member
Tadpole
Joined
Sep 21, 2019
Messages
17
Location
Australia
Hi all,

New owner of a 1962 404 Sedan. There is an intermittent rattle at engine idle which I suspect is a loose/broken spring in the clutch plate, but more importantly the clutch is reluctant to fully disengage (as evidenced by grinding when attempting to engage reverse and difficulty at times in selecting other gears). The clutch free play is probably slightly more than necessary, but the pedal when engaged is about brake pedal height, and travels basically all the way to the floor. Am I looking at a bent fork or fingers, or is there anything else that might be the culprit. Apart from this the clutch basically works OK (throw-out bearing reasonably quiet, no slipping and reasonably smooth engagement).

There doesn't seem to be an inspection plate on the bell housing? Is there any way to see what is going on? Any place to get an inspection camera in even?

Assuming I have to pull the box and replace the clutch, where can I source the correct clutch kit in Australia? Most of the eBay sellers have kits that show compatibility between 1963 and 1971 models. I thought 1960-1962 would have been the same? And figured that perhaps 1967 and onwards might have been different as they switched to the BA7 gearbox from the C3. There seems to be an Exedy PGK-6310 or Clutch Industries R352N. Will one of those do? Or is there something better?

Thanks.
 
A very common failure with the C3 is the clutch actuator shaft breaking. It's the "female" thing on the bell housing that the shaft tongue coming from the pedal connects into. Look for a cracked sheet metal shroud, and if it is, go no further, that's the problem.
 
Australian assembly began in August 1962 with No 4262413. As only 60 were delivered in 1962 most early local 404's are considered 1963 models. The clutch kit for 1963 to 1967 cars will fit. There was a handful of private imports around from 1961-62.
 
Mike Tippett said:
A very common failure with the C3 is the clutch actuator shaft breaking. It's the "female" thing on the bell housing that the shaft tongue coming from the pedal connects into. Look for a cracked sheet metal shroud, and if it is, go no further, that's the problem.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike, I think you've nailed it. When I first saw this (https://imgur.com/a/esLBwG7) I thought it looked a bit odd. I suppose the question now is, what is the recommended fix?
 
Russell Hall said:
Australian assembly began in August 1962 with No 4262413. As only 60 were delivered in 1962 most early local 404's are considered 1963 models. The clutch kit for 1963 to 1967 cars will fit. There was a handful of private imports around from 1961-62.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Manufactured in 1962 and first registered in 1963, so unsure what best to call it! Serial number 4282271, which no doubt you will recognise :)
 
Hi Swift-au, Mike is spot on with c3 fault,also with the c3 it has a carbon thrust bearing and not ball race thrust,have also found carbon thrust worn down and pressure plate fingers damage aluminium release fork.either way it looks like gearbox removal required.......jim
 
And then there is the debate about whether it’s easier and quicker to remove the engine or gearbox etc to do a clutch change.
 
swift-au said:
Thanks Mike, I think you've nailed it. When I first saw this (https://imgur.com/a/esLBwG7) I thought it looked a bit odd. I suppose the question now is, what is the recommended fix?
Click to expand...

The gearbox or engine has to come out. I've done it both ways and the gearbox removal alone from under the car is a tad faster.

The shaft is essentially a two pronged fork inside the cylindrical steel capsule and the shaft from the chassis has a single slot that mates with it. It's much easier to change when the gearbox is not in the car. I did one with the engine out and the gearbox still in the car but it's a bit more awkward.

Finding a good shaft may be a challenge. Typically one of the two fork prongs is broken off when the sheath cracks to the point that someone will hose clamp it in vain. It'll still sort of work, but with much lost motion that results in your symptoms. Eventually the second prong goes and clutchless driving is needed to get the car home.

My theory is that the fork prongs are damaged by weak engine mounts that allow excessive drivetrain movement in relation to the chassis. Another cause is when removing or reinstalling the engine - without a proper Peugeot type gearbox support factory tool. The fork takes the weight and as the engine is wiggled about to set the input shaft splines, it damages the bell housing shaft.
 
Mike Tippett said:
The gearbox or engine has to come out. I've done it both ways and the gearbox removal alone from under the car is a tad faster.

Finding a good shaft may be a challenge. Typically one of the two fork prongs is broken off when the sheath cracks to the point that someone will hose clamp it in vain. It'll still sort of work, but with much lost motion that results in your symptoms. Eventually the second prong goes and clutchless driving is needed to get the car home.
Click to expand...

Bugger. If it's a well known weak point on the C3 boxes, why isn't anyone making reproductions? I don't like the idea of trying to source a hard to find part, which when I do find one, will possibly be close to buggered also :(

Is the capsule a part of the bell housing itself? In other words, should I be looking to source the complete bell housing assembly, or just the capsule? And is there a specific name for the shaft in question? From what I can see, the Peugeot shop manual just refers to it as the "shaft", and there may two different sizes of "shaft", just to make matters even worse.

Anyway, I much appreciate your assistance Mike. If I'd spent the afternoon pulling the box out and then discovered some flimsy piece of metal capsule had shit itself, I probably would have thrown the gearbox through the front windscreen (not my windscreen, obviously). Now at least I know what I'm dealing with, and will try to get as much swearing out of the way as I can, before I start the job.
 
Pretty sure I have good C3 clutch for 404. Came out of my 404 when I had to change to a BA7 gearbox as I didn't have a good C3. Clutch was OK, pretty new I think.
 
swift-au said:
Bugger. If it's a well known weak point on the C3 boxes, why isn't anyone making reproductions? I don't like the idea of trying to source a hard to find part, which when I do find one, will possibly be close to buggered also :(

Is the capsule a part of the bell housing itself? In other words, should I be looking to source the complete bell housing assembly, or just the capsule? And is there a specific name for the shaft in question? From what I can see, the Peugeot shop manual just refers to it as the "shaft", and there may two different sizes of "shaft", just to make matters even worse.

Anyway, I much appreciate your assistance Mike. If I'd spent the afternoon pulling the box out and then discovered some flimsy piece of metal capsule had shit itself, I probably would have thrown the gearbox through the front windscreen (not my windscreen, obviously). Now at least I know what I'm dealing with, and will try to get as much swearing out of the way as I can, before I start the job.
Click to expand...

The shaft is retained by a circlip and is easy enough to remove. No need to switch bell housings. - if it's not rusted. The forged aluminium (it rings like a bell!) release bearing fork slides off the shaft via some splines over part of the shaft. There's no effective way to inspect another shaft for cracks as they're buried under the sheet metal cylinder but there should be two solid-looking sides of the fork inside it.

I just checked Peugeot Classic parts and they don't have them. You can send an email to Joern Haarmann (joernhaarmann -at - freenet -dot- de) and ask if he has a new old stock one. 2120.22 should be the correct part based upon your VIN.
 
Thanks Mike and others. Enthusiasm permitting, I might pull the gearbox on the weekend and see what I'm up against. I know the box is leaking at least a little (or maybe a lot if the box is actually empty <vbg>), so perhaps I should replace any leaking seals at the same time. Is this a straight forward enough job? My enthusiasm won't stretch as far as a complete re-build at the moment! I also notice the oil pot and tube for oiling the graphite bearing is completely missing. For that matter, I don't exactly know where the oil pot is supposed to be located? Somewhere near the firewall? Attached to what exactly?

I've just heard back from Joern (he mustn't sleep!) -- he has the 2120.21, but not .22.. so close!

Graham -- If you can extract just the shaft from the clutch assembly, I'll happily buy it from you. I'd buy the whole shebang, but I expect shipping it to Sydney would be somewhat cost prohibitive!

pugnut -- Yeah, I probably should replace the mount, and maybe a dozen other things, but the problem is knowing where to stop :D

I'll remember to take some pics and post them.

Thanks again,
Roger
 
I have a clutch only, I'll check and see if I still have a shaft, I threw a lot of those bits away recently.
 
Mike Tippett said:
I wonder if 2120.21 will sill work, he might know.
Click to expand...

Joern said he wasn't sure if there was any difference, and suggested I send him some pics. So once I get it out I'll do that, and also take some measurements.

I've tried a few of the other French suppliers to no avail, so I'm thinking NOS is probably a lost cause, and am waiting to hear back from a couple of wreckers now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top