504 with no fan

[Thanos]

He does, what he didn't show was the power with no fans on, this would be very interesting.
Graham

You are right, Graham, it would be and i actually toyed with the idea but I decided against it.

I did not want dyno runs without cooling, even after a full tune to ensure no lean regions etc.

I always engage the fan for special stages, so power runs without one would be of academic interest only.

Owen had told me that electric fan losses would be in the region of 1 to 3 bhp, that was more than enough to cover me.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

You are right, Graham, it would be and i actually toyed with the idea but I decided against it.

I did not want dyno runs without cooling, even after a full tune to ensure no lean regions etc.

I always engage the fan for special stages, so power runs without one would be of academic interest only.

Owen had told me that electric fan losses would be in the region of 1 to 3 bhp, that was more than enough to cover me.

I really dislike the viscous fans on the Douvrin engines, have picked up a rare magnetic clutch water pump from an early euro spec 2 litre Sti.
With a switch for on off and automatic every situation will be covered.
With regard to your manifold offer I have decided to stay with the Douvrin, way too much bother in finding parts and expense to go the V6 route, have heard that engine parts are very hard to get also. This car's concept is not about outright performance the 205 is always going to be better for that.

Graham

 

[Pavel Moore]

A most

 

[Pavel Moore]

Whoops! Sorry about that.
A very interesting and informative lot of posts as I have a S2 505GTi wagon. It does not have any mechanical fan, only an electric one.
My problem was overheating in traffic jams and going up long hills with a load on. Turned out that the thermo switch [lower left of rad] was u/s.
Some of you may be aware that clothes dryers have little button thermostats that control maximum temps. They are called Open on Rise, or, Close on Rise Bimetal Snap Action Thermostats. There are a score, or more, temp. settings and here in Oz cost about $13 with free postage. I've fitted a Close on Rise with a temp. setting of - Close at 99C [turns fan on] and opens at 84C [fan off]. Size is 13mm dia by 6mm thick and has 2 small fixing tabs on the bottom and 2 blade connectors on top. Fixing is by 2 part epoxy resin, on the tabs only, to the bare metal side of the top tank. It works a relay very efficiently and does not interfere with the air con cycle.
Make: SELCO.[USA] Part no: CA-210-QC.
Oz agents website: Australia.RS_Online.com
The US makers will only sell at least 2 @ $US25 each and postage is a rip off at $US75.
Pavel

 

[Thanos]

.. have picked up a rare magnetic clutch water pump from an early euro spec 2 litre Sti.

I had one of them on my STi, very effective and very noisy.

With a switch for on off and automatic every situation will be covered.

The off is clever, why waste power at high speed when air speed cooling takes over anyway. As for the on, the benefit is obvious.

..every situation will be covered...

I agree, with a suggestion for an improvement: The water pump fan moves at engine speed, if you are waiting at idle between stages cooling may not be as quick. Having an electric fan in addition to the magnetic set-up may provide more efficient cooling at low engine speeds.

...With regard to your manifold offer I have decided to stay with the Douvrin...

This means that my turbo/efi PRV project is back on the docket for 2013 (or perhaps 2014!). I think Bill will be tired of hearing from me

 

[Doush_504]

Mission accomplished.
The 504 is now running on its front A/C fan which engages at 90C.
Things I noticed so far:
It definitely feels quieter, specially after 90kph.
A noticeable increase in power at higher RPMs (like Thanos pointed).
Cooling is more than adequate on the highway (attached pic).
The first trip I took, after leaving the highway and while in the middle of traffic I heard the fan engage so I got worried and stopped to let it cool down for a couple of minutes and then continued the 2 Kms left to home without any hassles.
Generally, in traffic it tends to get hot and to be more specific this happens at the end of the trip not at the beginning, but the fan's manual switch keeps me reassured and means that temp never goes past 90C.
Engine bay feels hotter .
What I do miss is the amazing soundtrack of the fan, this is my only regret so far. Although it is much quieter, I don't like the bare sound of the engine, that fan gave it an amazing note

That's all I can think of for the moment.

Cheers

 

[jo proffi]

Generally, in traffic it tends to get hot and to be more specific this happens at the end of the trip not at the beginning, but the fan's manual switch keeps me reassured and means that temp never goes past 90C.
Engine bay feels hotter .

Perfect.

If it peaks at 90, your system is working fine.

To fully test the capabilities, you would need to load the car up with max weight, and climb a big hill on a heatwave day, at wide open throttle, medium high revs.
Do you have hills in Cairo??

Assuming you have coolant in the system, and your rubber hoses, radiator and water pump are all in good condition, at 90 degrees peak, your cooling system has a massive amount of headroom before things start to get ugly.

Jo

 

[Doush_504]

Perfect.

If it peaks at 90, your system is working fine.

To fully test the capabilities, you would need to load the car up with max weight, and climb a big hill on a heatwave day, at wide open throttle, medium high revs.
Do you have hills in Cairo??

Assuming you have coolant in the system, and your rubber hoses, radiator and water pump are all in good condition, at 90 degrees peak, your cooling system has a massive amount of headroom before things start to get ugly.

Jo

Thanks Jo.
We do have a hill with some very nice curves as well, but don't you think this is torture ?
Might give it a try but the 504 never gets loaded with anything more than myself, when I have guests, I use another car :wink2:
I do have coolant (with GUNK anti rust & pump lube additive), most of the rubber hoses are relatively new, except for the heating ones that go through the firewall because I have no clue how to change them and whether they are available as new or not .
Radiator (4 rows) is 6-7 years old and has no bent fins, but I might be looking for a 505 radiator since everyone is saying it is more efficient. Also I don't think I have enough space between the fan hub and the radiator to fit an electric fan, hence the need for a wider unit to shift the center of the fan away from the hub.
Water pump (Sasic) is 4 years old and I think it is in good shape (is there a way to tell for sure) ?

 

[Ikenna351]

Pls, I beg to differ from most of you guys here that maintained that 504 never had a factory locked radiator cooling fan to the engine. All 504s & 504s manuafactured/assembled in PAN (Peugeot Automobile Nigeria), from late '70s to 2003, ending the production of 504 in Nigeria, all had their cooling fan locked to water pump. Its factory, not conversion. I can post a pic of the fan with the water pump, if you doubt me.

The best way to run a 504 or 505, with full engine power, is by converting it to electric fan and connect it to radiator sensor to be activated by it or serve as a trigger to the fan, as soon as the temp tries to exceed 90 C.

I have converted my 505 V6 Viscous fan to electric fan. I did it myself. After the conversion, the car is now quicker and the engine sound note is out of the world. It revs smoothly without any noise. I love listening to the ZN3J engine sound now, with it smooth sound as rev increases, that is , as the rev increases, the smoother the engine sounds . All the hp that the viscous fan was sapping from the engine before the fan conversion is now been transfered to the wheels completely. I installed the fan behind the radiator and connect it to function as pull/suck fan, which i have observed is much, i mean, very much better than push fan. How i wished 605 too had pull fan, rather than the push fan mounted in front of the radiator.

Anyway, before i did the electric fan conversion, i pulled out the thermostart and test it in a pot of boiling water and it was working. It opens at 79 C, as you can see engraved on my 505 V6 t-start (pic attached). Now the temp guage on the instrument cluster has never gone beyond 90 C. When the car is on motorway, the temp comes down to 80 C.

If i were you Chadi, I would do electric fan conversion. The fan only comes on when am are in traffic, runs for a minute & switches off for another 5 mins or so, pending when the car starts moving again.

Attached pics are the pics i took when i was doing the electric fan conversion on my 505 V6 in September 2011, 4 months ago.

Ikenna.

 

[BIGRR]

504 fan

Pls, I beg to differ from most of you guys here that maintained that 504 never had a factory locked radiator cooling fan to the engine. All 504s & 504s manufactured/assembled in PAN (Peugeot Automobile Nigeria), from late '70s to 2003, ending the production of 504 in Nigeria, all had their cooling fan locked to water pump. It factory, not conversion. I can post a pic of the fan with the water pump, if you doubt me.

No problems:

My 504Ti hand book, on the page, "useful hints" has a Heading:
"SELF - DISENGAGING FAN"
(fitted for some countries)

By the way the useful hint instructs - Should your engine overheat, make sure that the fan engages (providing you have a self disengaging fan) how to short out the terminals and see if the fan engages, if not "slacken the lock nuts on the three screws and moderately tighten the screws. The fan is then driven permanently until it can be repaired"


I do not think that many of the members here have their 504 hand books.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Pls, I beg to differ from most of you guys here that maintained that 504 never had a factory locked radiator cooling fan to the engine. All 504s & 504s manuafactured/assembled in PAN (Peugeot Automobile Nigeria), from late '70s to 2003, ending the production of 504 in Nigeria, all had their cooling fan locked to water pump. It factory, not conversion. I can post a pic of the fan with the water pump, if you doubt me.

The best way to run of 504 or 505, with full engine power, is by converting it to electric fan and connect it to radiator sensor to be activating it or serve as a trigger to the fan, as soon as the temp tries to exceed 90 C.

I have converted my 505 V6 Viscous fan to electric fan. I did it myself. After the conversion, the car is now quicker and the engine sound note is out of the world. It revs smoothly without any noise. I love listening to the ZN3J engine now, with it smooth sound All the hp that the viscous fan was sapping from the engine before the fan conversion is now been transfered to the wheels completely. I installed the fan behind the radiator and connect it to function as pull/suck fan, which i have observed is much better than push fan. How i wished 605 too had pull fan, rather than the push fan mounted in front of the radiator.

Anyway, before i did the electric fan conversion, i pulled out the thermostart and test it in a pot of boiling water and it was working. It opens at 79 C, as you can see engraved on my 505 V6 t-start (pic attached). Now the temp guage on the instrument has never gone beyond 90 C. When the car is on motorway, the temp comes down to 80 C.

If i were you Chadi, I would do electric fan conversion. The fan only comes on when am are in traffic, runs for a minute & switches off for another 5 mins or so, pending when the car starts moving again.\

Attached pics are the pics i took when i was doing the electric fan conversion on my 505 V6 in September 2011, 4 months ago.

Ikenna.

Yes, all the 504s we got had magnetic clutch fans but like Nigeria we got fixed fans for the 404 while elsewhere the 404 and even the later 403s had clutching fans.
I've managed to get hold of a clutching fan for my Douvrin engine
Graham

 

[Wildebeest]

fan...

Yes, all the 504s we got had magnetic clutch fans but like Nigeria we got fixed fans for the 404 while elsewhere the 404 and even the later 403s had clutching fans.
I've managed to get hold of a clutching fan for my Douvrin engine
Graham

Which is why my '73 ex Rhodesian 404* had a clutched fan.
Forever fending off queries as why this was so.

* XM7 1800 engine. Sweet as a nut.

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Which is why my '73 ex Rhodesian 404* had a clutched fan.
Forever fending off queries as why this was so.

* XM7 1800 engine. Sweet as a nut.

The XC7 was also very good. This was a detuned 1600 fitted to later model 404s after 1970.
The Avis rental 404 I hired in Noumea in 1973 went extremely well, better than the more powerful XC6, it was also fiited with the supposedly inferior resonator style exhaust manifold.
I fitted a cam from a South African motor, would be XC7 as it had the open top block, to the motor that Brian Amey used in the Ampol Rerun in 2006, nobody would believe that it wasn't an 1800, including Brian. I built another motor not long after, 1800 and an XN6 cam but it didn't go as well.

Graham

 

[Ikenna351]

One more thing you need to know about Mechanical/Vicous/Electromagnetic or clutched radiator cooling fan. The mechanical fan on water pump gives heavy load on water pump shaft, as the fan spins. The more you rev, the more load on the water pump shaft due to pressure from air drag while spinning. It kills water pump faster. Without the fan on the water pump, the water pump will hardly fail, i mean, hardly.

 

[Wildebeest]

More fans...

One more thing you need to know about Mechanical/Vicous/Electromagnetic or clutched radiator cooling fan. The mechanical fan on water pump gives heavy load on water pump shaft, as the fan spins. The more you rev, the more load on the water pump shaft due to pressure from air drag while spinning. It kills water pump faster. Without the fan on the water pump, the water pump will hardly fail, i mean, hardly.

Ikenna,
Disregarding the supposed bhp increases the only excuse I would make for fitting a remote cooling fan is to unburden the water pump as per your post.
The weight of the combined pulley and clutch is not something I would like dropped on my head!:wink2:

 

[BIGRR]

504 fan

Ikenna,
Disregarding the supposed bhp increases the only excuse I would make for fitting a remote cooling fan is to unburden the water pump as per your post.
The weight of the combined pulley and clutch is not something I would like dropped on my head!:wink2:

This year I replaced the original water pump on my Ti, 360000km and 38 years old, nothing wrong with the shaft or bearings.
As it had a drip I thought that the shaft seal was gone, No, the top hose connection/thermostat housing had disintegrated (corrosion) after the car had sat in the garage inactive for a couple of years.
I had not been aware that corrosion inhibitor was required for the first 25 years and the radiator was filled with tap water until then .

 

[Doush_504]

My 504Ti hand book, on the page, "useful hints" has a Heading:
"SELF - DISENGAGING FAN"
(fitted for some countries)

By the way the useful hint instructs - Should your engine overheat, make sure that the fan engages (providing you have a self disengaging fan) how to short out the terminals and see if the fan engages, if not "slacken the lock nuts on the three screws and moderately tighten the screws. The fan is then driven permanently until it can be repaired"


I do not think that many of the members here have their 504 hand books.

In my user's manual ( have 2 of them actually ) it says that the electro magnetic fan is fitted to some countries. However there is no mention of the clutch fan

One more thing you need to know about Mechanical/Vicous/Electromagnetic or clutched radiator cooling fan. The mechanical fan on water pump gives heavy load on water pump shaft, as the fan spins. The more you rev, the more load on the water pump shaft due to pressure from air drag while spinning. It kills water pump faster. Without the fan on the water pump, the water pump will hardly fail, i mean, hardly.

Fairly logic.

 

[Wildebeest]

Chadi,
Electro magnetic fan and clutch fan are one and the same.

 

[Doush_504]

Chadi,
Electro magnetic fan and clutch fan are one and the same.

Sorry, I meant viscous fans

 

[Doush_504]

It's been a long time but here is an update.
With summer getting hotter and hotter (temps above 35 degrees) the A/C fan was asked to do too much work cooling the car on its own. I bought the 505 SR cross flow radiator (with only 2 rows) along with a Renault Twingo twin speed electric fan. I can now say that cooling has become amazing, the car is a joy to drive in the 40 deg hell :roflmao:.
I had a problem with the mounting points however, the 505 radiator bolt locations are further apart from mine. The fan was a perfect fit for the radiator.
Electricals are as follows: the temp sensor which came in the radiator (most probably 80-90) controls the big fan (running only on 2nd speed) while the A/C controls the small front fan. Both of course have under dash switches. They also have a Bosch relay and a 40 amp fuse each.
In stop and go traffic, the fan kicks in for a maximum of 1 min and then stays off for maybe 6-7 minutes depending on traffic conditions.

Clearance is no issue. I was looking at the beginning for a Corolla fan (being well known for cooling superiority) but the guy suggested that the Twingo fan being more compressed would be more suitable for my application. The fan turned out to be made by a German company, Behr. So now my 2 cooling fans are German made (the A/C fan being made Bosch and usually fitted to the Mercedes W123). Does this make me a traitor ?

Here is the old 4 row radiator. Funnily enough, despite the long discussions about the cooling superiority of the 505 radiator, I just discovered that the 308 has a vertical flow radiator not the cross flow.