504 Open Road Performance

Agree with Russell about idiot hoon drivers, but I wonder whether speed limits affect their behaviour amd whether whether their behaviour might be slightly better, or at least with a higher skill level, were they better educated

One cant get a licence in Finland without spending 6 hours sideways on a skidpan. Here if one drives sideways they take the car away and call you a hoon. Learning that there are things one can’t control can tend to have a moderating influence.

We kill about the same number of people (in proportion ) to the Germans, actually slightly more

The guy who has been doing 250k on the autobahn will happily obey the 30 or 50k limit in town

We routinely drive at 80k around town ( try doing a successful phenomenal avoidance if somebody steps out in front at that speed ) but then try to drive to Brisbane at 100kph and wonder why we either get tired and have to stop or get tired and drive into a tree.

Our limits are ridiculously low for modern cars and roads, remember that the 504s and 404s we drive happily at 130-140(or more in some cases ) have none of the safety features of modern rubbish, but we still survive, mostly because we pay attention and take the task seriously, which is partly why I made my comments about Australian driver training ( woeful )

We drive much too fast in the city and rather too slowly in the country. Enforcement is directed at obeying the rules and not at bad driving. In Europe Mr Plod is usually not terribly interested if one is driving at anywhere up to about 160 ( more in Germany ) but will come down like a ton of bricks if driving badly ( tailgating, ‘undertaking’, lane swapping etc )

They generally don’t have speed cameras on the Autobahn ( unless a restricted stretch) WHat they have lots of is ‘distance’ cameras - on bridges, like our speed cameras. Camera measures the speed of each car, photographs the number plate , then does the same for the following car. Then calculates distance between cars, looks at the speed and decides whether one is too close for the speed, if so :k’ching and one is many Euros poorer.

Priorities seem rather more sensible

Best Wishes

Andrew

Andrew
 
When I bought a 504 in 1972 it came with a Renault supplied Advanced Driving course. Unfortunately many young people who are involved in serious crashes don't seem to have any idea of what can go wrong and the consequences.
But the road system is quite complex with different classes of roads and different vehicle classes. C class highways in Victoria are often unsuitable for 100kph in heavy vehicles and the death rate from such crashes is rising. Raising the Victorian limit to 110 would be desirable for cars but not trucks. Badly maintained log trucks travelling at speed are rather daunting particularly as jumping their turntables is not unknown.
 
Andrew Watkins said:
Watkins' first legal principle

"Nothing's illegal until you're caught"

Our rural speed limits are rubbish, although one has to factor in a fair bit for the idiots one meets along the way

In Germany one can't get a licence without proving that one can drive safely at 160 with cars doing 250 coming up behind . Here if one does that they call you a hoon and take the car away ( to say nothing of what they'd do to the guy doing 250 ).

Lot to be said for driver education which goes to teaching one to drive, not just to obey the rules. Can't see it happening though.

Andrew
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Sadly that PUCEY attitude cost four Victorian Police members their lives recently, because one anti social hoon wanted to exercise his right to drive his Porsche obscenely above the 100 kph speed limit. Something to think about, how this chain of tragic circumstance evolved. Sad for the lives disrupted and the rich idiot that languishes in prison, awaiting justice, but nothing will bring back those lives or heal so many families. :cry:

Ken
 
Kenfuego said:
Sadly that PUCEY attitude cost four Victorian Police members their lives recently, because one anti social hoon wanted to exercise his right to drive his Porsche obscenely above the 100 kph speed limit. Something to think about, how this chain of tragic circumstance evolved. Sad for the lives disrupted and the rich idiot that languishes in prison, awaiting justice, but nothing will bring back those lives or heal so many families. :cry:

Ken
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I think, in view of Andrew's learning, one could reasonably interpret some intended jest in his post. I wouldn't be so quick to apply the label of "hoon" , especially in view of his profession. ;)
 
With air bags and crumple zones and crash avoidance technology we all still fragile beings travelling in a tin box and when it goes wrong the results are not nice for those who have to respond. Nobody handles dead kids well. Even the hardest hearted undertakers can crack. But fortunately crashes are fewer than once were and given the number of cars on the road the reduction in the death rate has been manifold. Youthful hoons are only part of the problem. At present truck safety is an issue in need of attention particularly driver training and the admissibility of international driver licences with which so many obviously unskilled drivers are crewing heavy trucks.
Rear drive Peugeots were considered solid and safe cars but people did die in them. I don't think it made us slow down.
 
robmac said:
I think, in view of Andrew's learning, one could reasonably interpret some intended jest in his post. I wouldn't be so quick to apply the label of "hoon" , especially in view of his profession. ;)
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Rob I mentioned hoon as that was pointed out, definately no personalisation towards any individual other than Pucey...
 
Was not Mr Pusey on a motorway in a suitable fast car? There are no log trucks and wandering stock there. He was initially only the target of a speed catcher. He didn't drive the vehicle that caused the death. His character, even if unimpressive, isn't important. There is too much character assassination and tendency evidence presented to courts as if it were actual evidence, often first via newspapers.

The M1 motorway, which I mentioned, was actually geometrically designed for high speeds, and has 3 lanes to choose from. Lorries are many but avoidable. The Hume motorway and others like it could be faster too, It would be uncommon to see logs, etc on any major inter-urban road near Sydney, Newcastle or Wollongong. Stock aren't on motorways. The major hazard is the B-double, which is normally in the left lane.
 
seasink said:
Was not Mr Pusey on a motorway in a suitable fast car? There are no log trucks and wandering stock there. He was initially only the target of a speed catcher. He didn't drive the vehicle that caused the death. His character, even if unimpressive, isn't important. There is too much character assassination and tendency evidence presented to courts as if it were actual evidence, often first via newspapers.

The M1 motorway, which I mentioned, was actually geometrically designed for high speeds, and has 3 lanes to choose from. Lorries are many but avoidable. The Hume motorway and others like it could be faster too, It would be uncommon to see logs, etc on any major inter-urban road near Sydney, Newcastle or Wollongong. Stock aren't on motorways. The major hazard is the B-double, which is normally in the left lane.
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The accident happened in the emergency lane of Melbourne's Eastern Freeway freeway in the Suburb of Kew.
Pusy was driving a Porsche Sports Car and, as I recall he was found to have drugs in his system.

Taking photographs of a dying police officer, whilst berating her may not be illegal , however most would consider such behavior reprehensible.
 
Some years ago a French couple were taking their grandchildren for a trip in their 203. A fast moving car on the Autoroute crashed into the rear and killed the children. From that I gained the impression their drivers were no more skilled than ours. A tendency of the brain to switch to autopilot when on freeways seems to be an affliction of all countries.
 
seasink said:
Was not Mr Pusey on a motorway in a suitable fast car? There are no log trucks and wandering stock there. He was initially only the target of a speed catcher. He didn't drive the vehicle that caused the death. His character, even if unimpressive, isn't important. There is too much character assassination and tendency evidence presented to courts as if it were actual evidence, often first via newspapers.

The M1 motorway, which I mentioned, was actually geometrically designed for high speeds, and has 3 lanes to choose from. Lorries are many but avoidable. The Hume motorway and others like it could be faster too, It would be uncommon to see logs, etc on any major inter-urban road near Sydney, Newcastle or Wollongong. Stock aren't on motorways. The major hazard is the B-double, which is normally in the left lane.
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So the police caused this, by daring to enforce the laws made "by the people, for the people" ??? maybe a sign of the times and I am reminded of the recent British headline "26 Police injured in peaceful protest in Brixton" Those damn police causing that... too. wouldn't you know it ! sad times, no wonder some resort to blue flu, as they were prevented from taking industrial action after the Victorian Police Strike, but every one else has the absolute right ...err try calling a social worker in Lieu of anyone else......said with an ironic sigh... :unsure: Of course no one should try and save lives in these cancel culture topsy turvey days, that is going too far...:eek:

ken
 
Forget the driver's unpleasant character Ken, if you can. It isn't relevant to the driving. Was it not a Porsche being driven fast on a motorway? Would the police have been involved if speed limits were not so low? That is, was it genuinely dangerous on the motorway?

If radars were not used to hand out tickets, would the police have been involved at all?. I haven't read up here that he did anything prior to being stopped except speed above the limit..
 
This thread has certainly opened the proverbial round metal container of long tube-like animals with no eyes or limbs, has it not?

If we get back to the original question, the 504 sold in France in the millions, and France is a lot more hilly than here. (but not as much as Spain). Logically, if it could not cope with hills and/or mountains, it would not have sold so well.

The later model the better I think, the 79 with the square-port head was the first car I drove where you could change up a gear going up a hill.

But whilst I am here, what is wrong with "undertaking", as mentioned by AW? The law says..

You must overtake on the right unless a vehicle is waiting to turn right, is stationary, or if you and the other vehicle are travelling in marked lanes. In these instances you may overtake on the left side if it is safe.

90% of cars that I overtake is done on the left, in marked lanes because, especially on the M1, it is almost invariably someone of either predictable ethnicity or type of vehicle assuming that they are king of the road, and therefore their rightful place is in the right hand lane.

Nothing gives me more pleasure than seeing one 4WD tailgating another.
 
seasink said:
Forget the driver's unpleasant character Ken, if you can. It isn't relevant to the driving. Was it not a Porsche being driven fast on a motorway? Would the police have been involved if speed limits were not so low? That is, was it genuinely dangerous on the motorway?

If radars were not used to hand out tickets, would the police have been involved at all?. I haven't read up here that he did anything prior to being stopped except speed above the limit..
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You post reeks of defense lawyer stuff.

If I was convinced to overlook Mr Pusy's unpleasant traits.

I can't overlook the fact that he was travelling at 140 (?) KPH and had been smoking Cannabis and had the drug Ice(?) in his system as well whilst driving..

I also find it difficult to accept his rant given to a dying police officer.

His history of "good behavior" is also something less than stellar.

I'd suggest a cursory glance with "legal rights" in mind often fails the" pub bar" (and societies expectations).
 
As I recall it is considered desirable on freeways for vehicles of the same class to travel at much the same speed. Those travelling substantially above or below the speed limit are a problem. The 504 has sufficient power to quickly attain speed when merging into a traffic stream. The 203 doesn't.
Anyone who wants to travel at very high speed on a crowded freeway is seriously anti-social and police can hardly be criticised for doing their duty.
 
Does anyone know how the later square port headed engine compares to a Ti engine, in terms of power?
 
Rob, I won't comment further on this in a 504 thread, but some time ago I heard the criminal trial over an incident involving someone I knew. The prosecution presented endless material to establish in my mind, and probably the jury's, the reputation of the accused, which to my astonishment the judge permitted. The only other evidence, buried in a mass of irrelevancies just to stretch proceedings, also permitted, was the original complaint, unsubstantiated - a who is truthful now? argument. .

I remarked then that no evidence had been presented on which a decision could be made. The jury convicted and the accused was sentenced. The appeal judges later disagreed.
 
robmac said:
You post reeks of defense lawyer stuff.

If I was convinced to overlook Mr Pusy's unpleasant traits.

I can't overlook the fact that he was travelling at 140 (?) KPH and had been smoking Cannabis and had the drug Ice(?) in his system as well whilst driving..

I also find it difficult to accept his rant given to a dying police officer.

His history of "good behavior" is also something less than stellar.

I'd suggest a cursory glance with "legal rights" in mind often fails the" pub bar" (and societies expectations).
Click to expand...

He had form for driving at 197 on Eastern freeway and boasted about hitting 300

Also given to driving with drugs in his system, to say nothing of personality characteristics which reek of sociopathy.

While I abhor our low limits, there is no way that one could safely do 197 or 300 on that road, as even were one highly skilled and well trained, nobody in Melbourne would be expecting a car coming up that fast behind and most have only a dim idea of the function of a rear view mirror. It could only end in tears.

I think that he is about to discover just how many things you can be convicted of should the police really put their minds to it and I shall shed no tears if they make a lot of them stick.

“Undertaking” , as noted, is legal in Oz if lines are marked. This does not make it good driving. It is unfortunately sometimes necessary when confronted by three cars line abreast at 85 k on the motorway. They will sit there forever blissfully unaware of those behind.

In Germany the outer lane is for overtaking and one is 300 Euro poorer in fairly short order if one is in that lane while not overtaking anybody. Lane discipline in Europe is generally much better, allowing the slow to go slowly safely and those faster to do so unimpeded and safely. One can also get fined and/or thrown off the Autobahn if unable to keep up ( >95-100 k ).

What this means is that I, as a keen driver of only moderate ability can cruise comfortably at 220-230, because the training of those around is such that everybody behaves predictably.

I agree that trucks are an issue, especially maintenance ( a responsibility of the company - mostly ) and driver tiredness ( mutual responsibility ). The economics of trucking are such that it appears that many are undertrained and having to do ridiculous hours to make any sort of a living and drivers are often in no position to refuse to drive an unsafe truck( visa, finance ). This is a major economic/structural problem which goes beyond speed limits - if the brakes don’t work on a 30 ton lorry whoever one hits is approximately as dead whatever the speed.

Tiredness is an interesting one. I looked into this while researching ICU rostering some years ago. If one has not slept for 17 hours the psychomotor performance is roughly that of somebody with BAC of 0.05%. If not slept for 24 hours it translates to an effective BAC of 0.1%.

In my distant youth I did 60 hour weekends in which we often didn’t sleep and it is still not unusual in hospitals to see people working 24 hours’ straight( although often the roster doesn’t show this clearly ). This could be your doctor or lorry driver.

We are interesting folk - if any of us were to turn up to work and blow 0.1% we would expect to be in deep shit. But if one works 24 hours straight one is some sort of a hero. This applies in a number of disciplines. We have to get away from this.

Regards

Andrew
 
The outer country road network in Victoria is a little older than the 504. It's the type of uneven bitumen road surfaces the 504 was designed for. So it's quite an appropriate vehicle. Handling a B Double with two decks of cattle on those roads requires skill. So choosing a transport operator takes care.
Truck drivers have log books and regulated rest breaks but some get around them. Owner operators sub contracting for the big companies are under the most economic stress.
Falling asleep at the wheel has killed so many people but we all drive when tired at times. The CFA had policies that didn't always work where we weren't supposed to drive the trucks home after a long shift. After 24 hours you couldn't sleep anyway but decision making wasn't advised. Travelling in remote areas there is nothing open at night but finding a coffee is gold.
Quite a few drivers come off Victorian minor highways at what speeds I don't know but there are certain bends and difficult sections that have claimed drivers for decades and probably will into the future too. Some people have always driven at speed with skill and safety although when a truly fast driver has a crash it's spectacular. I suspect some of those who come off on tighter bends have set their speed control and don't drive to the conditions.
In the country there are animals both wild and domestic, wide and /or slow equipment and slow moving vehicles which need to be anticipated. No problem with a driver who drives to conditions. A 14 foot wide combine is awkward to move, puts oncoming drivers into the gravel and makes one very aware of bridge widths.
 
My first 504 injection had an annoying gear lever sizzle at 78-80 mph. The cure? 81 mph.
 
My 404 KF2 Injection sedan was a cracker on the highway at 100 - short geared so no need to shift down, and it would rocket from 100 to 130 in very few seconds. Ideal highway car. I expect my 404C KF2 will be even better, because it's more aerodynamic than the sedan.
 
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