407 HDi rough idle

addo said:
5-40 diesel Magnatec is full synth and low-SAPS.
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From what I've been able to find:

The correct oil for the DW10BTED engine should meet the ACEA C2 (& A5/B5) specification which the 5W-40 Magnatec does not. The PSA oil is also 5W-30 viscosity (perhaps a minor point which will only affect the fuel consumption).

Incidently, the FAP requires replacement at 240,000 kms or 10 years (or 180,000 kms in adverse conditions).


con....
 
kelpiebat said:
Wife drives 407 HDi built late '04 and fitted with 4 speed auto.Any knowledge or thoughts will be appreciated.
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Just to be a pedantic P#%&K I did not know that the 407 had a 4 speed auto.

If the rough idle is caused by the DPF then tis DPF Service Solutions and Removal? The Best Place For DPF Problems is a worthwhile option they are based in Londenderry NSW

I woulds be tempted to say that the problem is more likey to be the injectors see ebay Petrol Fuel Injector Peugeot 206 307 406 407 607 806 807 Expert 2 0 1984E2 | eBay these appear reasonable prices

Cheers and good luck
 
Meggsy said:
Just to be a pedantic P#%&K I did not know that the 407 had a 4 speed auto.

If the rough idle is caused by the DPF then tis DPF Service Solutions and Removal? The Best Place For DPF Problems is a worthwhile option they are based in Londenderry NSW .....

Cheers and good luck
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If I read their options correctly - they want $1599 or more to switch off the "DPF and EGR" functions in the ECU.

Anyone with a DiagBox or Lexia should be able to do the same thing for a lot less then that. As to the legality of disabling polution control, well .....


con...
 
con said:
If I read their options correctly - they want $1599 or more to switch off the "DPF and EGR" functions in the ECU.

Anyone with a DiagBox or Lexia should be able to do the same thing for a lot less then that. As to the legality of disabling polution control, well .....


con...
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I believe, for the DPF at least, it requires a new ECU map which means opening up the ECU. If it was me in business I reckon I'd be charging around the same amount after factoring in equipment required, up-skilling and the risk involved. What if you bricked a customers ECU?
 
There's $500 upwards for an ECU, depending on the car.

You need ECUSafe and a Galetto cable, according to the punters. I'm keen to try a DPF delete - anyone care to be the guinea pig?
 
addo said:
There's $500 upwards for an ECU, depending on the car.

You need ECUSafe and a Galetto cable, according to the punters. I'm keen to try a DPF delete - anyone care to be the guinea pig?
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I did a bit of research for my model a while ago and I don't think a Galetto cable is sufficient. I'm happy to be the Guinea pig when my DPF carks it though.
 
gromzx said:
I think you'll find these don't fit a Hdi.
The price of Hdi injectors are minimum $400 each depending on where you get them from.
Getting the original injectors rebuilt is a more viable option but will take time.
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OOOPS !!! cant read can I !!!
 
I may have a new diagnosis for the power loss, rough idle, and surging/hunting.
I came across this problem vary recently on another 407 Hdi, and having seen it in person it was vary obvious what the problem was.

At the front of the engine there is a Y piece (the one that holds the air flow sensors that always play up) that has 2 flaps in it to ether pass intake air though the intercooler or bypass it.
On this car the bottom flap that blocks the bypass passage had become jammed in the closed position, so when the engine was at a low throttle setting (e.g idle or cruising) and the computer attempted to bypass the intercooler by closing the top flap and opening the bottom, it was in fact closing both flaps and starving the engine of air. The engine would then splatter and nearly stall, but the computer would release the top flap before stalling which would make the engine rev to about 1500 rpm vary quickly and then repeat.
To confirm if this is you problem, when the car is idling bad, pull the vacuum hose off the top flap, which will allow it to open, and the rough idle should magically go away.

Hope this helps.
Please let us know if you have any joy with this.
 
Thanks gromzx, your input is much appreciated. After locating the two flap actuators I tested it in the way you suggested and though it did not help I was unable to feel any vacuum on the detached tube. Had no time to investigate at the time, but soon as the 405 rear wheel bearings are done I figure on removing the whole y piece for a serious clean and look into the lack of vacuum. Those two sensors are, I'm told, for air temperature (mine was carbon covered) and pressure.
Do you have a diagnostic scanner and if yes what brand? I'm thinking of getting one.
Many thanks Paddy
 
No scan tool unfortunately.
You will find that both flaps receive vacuum at the same time (as the lower flap is normally closed and the upper is normally open as I found out), and that it will not activate till the car is warm.
I can't remember if you said if the problem only happen after the engine had warmed up, but if that is the case, then this is almost certainly the problem.

An update on the above 407. After a proper look at it (first time was on the side of the road with no tool (it's my parents car)) I learned that the flaps where not stack, but there was no vacuum to the lower flap, so the solenoid valve that controls it had die.
Now waiting for the new part to come.

If you're looking for the solenoid valves, they are at the bottom of the engine bay to the left of the intercooler bypass pipe close to the engine. they can be easily seen from the top of the engine bay.

Hope this helps and the problem is sorted soon.
 
My car does not start as easily as it used to and idles roughly whether cold or hot. At first it would become smooth at ~1500 rpm but now its more like 2000.
The y piece was removed and is now clean ready for refitting soon. I'm able to suck well enough to verify that both flaps will move. Since the trouble began I've looked at many threads seeking clues and now that it has developed into having virtually no power under 2000 there is recall of reading one which said that at start up the turbo set-up goes to max pressure mode and the normally closed flap in the y piece opens to allow a less restricted flow to the inlet manifold via the rubber tube that passes under the engine, and has been known to split within the section which has an additional mesh screen over it. With only limited air available from a turbo driven by an idling engine what I read sounds logical, and therefore it is most likely that the intercooler bypass flap in the y piece should become open upon start up. If mine isn't then the lack of low rpm power could be a shortage of air due to turbo control fault and/or air delivery problem. All these controls require vacuum to activate them, I believe, and the EGR is tied into it. I doubt that the idling engine should be fed much, if any, low oxygen exhaust gas. Maybe blanking it will remove 1 possible culprit.
The MAF sensor unit at the air filter outlet has been cleaned. A friend of mine, who looks after several 2.0 HDi engines fitted in Fiat based campers and etc is not a fan of European fuse boxes, has suggested that the 18 month old split second power loss issue is most likely electrical and what is happening now is a development of that. A Peug dealer looked at the car about 12 months ago and to the best of my knowledge found nothing so used the scanner to tell the ECU a new DPF had been fitted. During the 1 hour drive home it did its random momentary power loss thing.

Anything you say can only help in getting her car back on the road. Even if it only makes me think about how the damn thing works. I think its time for another 405 SRDT- same economy, no computer, less power and creature comforts.
 
The fitting of an EGR blanking plate has significantly reduced the rough idling and restored all/most of the power and probably eliminated the surging. Only done 25kms since fitting it. Looks like all the rough running has helped an engine mount to fail going by the clunking when engaging reverse or drive.
The mystery of why the injector/s was twice the reading of the others remains and will require a fair bit of diagnostic time. May have to think about getting a Peugeot Planet scanner that the Poms rave about. Any thoughts on that topic ?
Got another 405 SRDT on the way, just in case the thing gets ornery again.
 
Hi Kelpiebat, I know nothing about diesels but unusually high fuel usage and worse when warm could be pointing to a bad coolant temp sender. If ECU thinks engine is cold then it dumps more fuel (and less air) into engine though you would think it would be ALL injectors and not just #1. Also it should come up as a fault code. May also be worth testing the O2 sensor (diesels have these right?).
 
Morning Nisspug, thanks for your input. I'm out of my depth a bit with these new diesels, but I've read many threads and now have some understanding. I think they have O2 sensor, they have a Lambda thing and the system will put exhaust gas back through the engine if the sensors giving feedback to the ECU cause the ECU to think it is necessary. Whether the errant injector is still overfuelling or not can only be learnt with a lengthy use of scan tool. If it isn't the next question is what does blanking the EGR do that corrects that fault. I think you're on the money as to why is it #1 all the time and very rarely #3. The 18 month old momentary power loss presents to me as being an electrical issue that is possibly the root of all that has now followed. A dealer has told me of them finding a fault in the injector supply (124 volts I'm told ) loom between the last connector and the injectors.
That '81 505 of yours sounds rather interesting! Have just bought a running 404 ute that needs rust repairs and my mind tinkers with the idea an engine with a bit more get-up and go. Hadn't thought of a Nissan but it's there now, what do you think ? My idea is to use the ute as a practical daily driver.
 
I'm glade you found the source of you problem. (or at least one of them)

As for the injector, I doubt that a faulty temp sensor would cause much problem at all. Diesels don't use enrichment for cold running like petrol's do, so such a problem may not even be noticed at all.

Normally when injectors are on there way out they make the engine run rougher and noisier, and can cause noticeable diesel knock when cold. (also black smoke, but if it has a DPF than you won't see the smoke. I suppose it could cause DPF failer if it was bad enough, but I haven't had a lot to do with DPF's, so I can't really comment there.)
If it's not to noticeable then maybe there not that bad. You could try injector cleaner next time you fill up, but if an injector is faulty than it's not going to do much.

At lest things are looking up.
Hope all is fixed soon.
 
gromzx said:
As for the injector, I doubt that a faulty temp sensor would cause much problem at all. Diesels don't use enrichment for cold running like petrol's do, so such a problem may not even be noticed at all.
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Didn't know that Gromzx-diesels are even more unique than I thought.

Kelpiebat: a 404 with a Nissan engine sounds awesome! As long as you have lots of spare time, a well equipped garage and a bit of spare cash. Took me a few years to finish mine (did I say finish? Just about to put some Volvo 4-spot calipers on the front...)

You would think that a problem with the injector power supply would cause a lean situation rather than a rich one. Not making a proper contact would mean the injector is not being opened every time the ECU tells it to be. It would not cause it to have extra pulses.
 
gromzx said:
I'm glade you found the source of you problem. (or at least one of them)

As for the injector, I doubt that a faulty temp sensor would cause much problem at all. Diesels don't use enrichment for cold running like petrol's do, so such a problem may not even be noticed at all.

Normally when injectors are on there way out they make the engine run rougher and noisier, and can cause noticeable diesel knock when cold. (also black smoke, but if it has a DPF than you won't see the smoke. I suppose it could cause DPF failer if it was bad enough, but I haven't had a lot to do with DPF's, so I can't really comment there.)
If it's not to noticeable then maybe there not that bad. You could try injector cleaner next time you fill up, but if an injector is faulty than it's not going to do much.

At lest things are looking up.
Hope all is fixed soon.
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Use diagbox and look at live sensor data for dpf and egr and intake systems and U will find the problem easily. When a dpf Is blocked excess gasses pass through EGR and cause surging and idle issues. These are common and makes the diagnosis simple on all rhr engines with Peugeot Citroen. Don't ever guess problems unless U can read live data and see what is actually happening to diagnose any fault easily. Otherwise take your car to someone who can interpret live data and tell and or show U what is going on..
Dpf systems on Peugeot are reliable..they don't have to be changed every 240k as some have suggested just again need to read live data and check the amount of soot build up and also amount of additive that has been injected into the dpf from the eoyls additive tank under car. Even when dpf regenerates it will not remove every piece of deposits from it and eventually will block up on high km vehicles. When this happens to save spending lots of money U can remove it and manually clean off vehicle to remove blockages bringing it back to as new original condition. Deleting of things should only be absolute last case as all the issues i read about here there are known fixes for and tech bulletins on a lot of them with Peugeot online
 
hehe. I love it when old threads are dug up again !

Cheers

Justin
 
Frenchiemech34 said:
Use diagbox and look at live sensor data for dpf and egr and intake systems and U will find the problem easily. When a dpf Is blocked excess gasses pass through EGR and cause surging and idle issues. These are common and makes the diagnosis simple on all rhr engines with Peugeot Citroen. Don't ever guess problems unless U can read live data and see what is actually happening to diagnose any fault easily. Otherwise take your car to someone who can interpret live data and tell and or show U what is going on..
Dpf systems on Peugeot are reliable..they don't have to be changed every 240k as some have suggested just again need to read live data and check the amount of soot build up and also amount of additive that has been injected into the dpf from the eoyls additive tank under car. Even when dpf regenerates it will not remove every piece of deposits from it and eventually will block up on high km vehicles. When this happens to save spending lots of money U can remove it and manually clean off vehicle to remove blockages bringing it back to as new original condition. Deleting of things should only be absolute last case as all the issues i read about here there are known fixes for and tech bulletins on a lot of them with Peugeot online
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you still on here?
 
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