308hdi piloted manual gearbox -replace actuator fluid?

[Will NZ]

I have done an extensive search and come up empty as to how to do a fluid change for the actuator mechanism in the piloted manual gearbox. Car is approaching 350 000 kms and recently has been playing up when shifting gears. I have vast experience with both the AL4 and AM6 auto boxes regarding the hydraulic blocks/solenoids going belly up, imo due to leaving the fluid unchanged because Peugeot saying that it is in for life.... yea right! 350 000 kms on this oil would surely have degraded it enormously... ?!! Clutch is fine in car, just the shifting of gears is becoming a bit sketchy, especially in the lower gears.

I can find info on servicebox as to how to depressurise/remove actuator mechanism/repressurise and bleed system, but nothing on how to drain/refill system. What if you replace the system with new unit? how do you go about refilling it? Another thing is what oil to be used. Stealer here in NZ wants first born child as deposit for oil, and EVERYTHING is a minimum of 3 week wait for it to come from France. Googling for alternative available compatible makes is a bit sketchy. Seems ZHM hydraulic oil is maybe equivalent? Penrite website suggests LHM oil may be good to go but it is marketed as a suspension oil.

Can anybody help with draining/replacing the hydraulic oil and what can be used as alternative oil and how much is needed?

 

[AlexB]

Clutch is fine in car, just the shifting of gears is becoming a bit sketchy, especially in the lower gears.

Are you sure it needs new oil?
Have you used the diagtool to check counters and adjust clutch bite point?

 

[Will NZ]

Pretty sure the hydraulic oil will be way past its best. My experience with other auto boxes that have had failing hydraulics tells me that it is worth changing the hydraulic oil. Some of the faulty gearboxes recovered with the oil change.

The clutch biting point seems fine 99% of the time, the way it is erraticily shifting is very reminiscent of the sketchy shifting in the auto boxes where an oil change and resetting of the counters and adaptives sorted some of them out. But I will hook it up to daigbox and see what it says.

 

[seasink]

You can't compare the MCP box with an auto transmission with a torque converter and epicyclic gears. It is the 6 speed MCM manual gearbox and clutch with a hydraulic clutch operator and a gear changer added on, with a control module.

 

[Will NZ]

I am not comparing an auto box with a manual. I am comparing the hydraulic systems that operate the gear shifting. Old contaminated oil in the auto boxes severely affected the auto boxes from shifting and put most of them into limp mode where they were locked into a single foward gear. Several partial fluid changes restored some back to working, others had to have the hydraulic block replaced to restore operation, some were too far gone to be a economical fix.

The piloted manual relies on a hydraulic system to shift the gears and control the clutch, just like the hydraulic block on the AL4 and AM6 auto boxes. It stands to reason that the oil will also degrade like in the auto boxes and cause faults in operation. That is why I want to replace the fluid before I go to the alternative of removing the box and firing the parts cannon at it....

 

[dmccurtayne]

I am not comparing an auto box with a manual. I am comparing the hydraulic systems that operate the gear shifting. Old contaminated oil in the auto boxes severely affected the auto boxes from shifting and put most of them into limp mode where they were locked into a single foward gear. Several partial fluid changes restored some back to working, others had to have the hydraulic block replaced to restore operation, some were too far gone to be a economical fix.

The piloted manual relies on a hydraulic system to shift the gears and control the clutch, just like the hydraulic block on the AL4 and AM6 auto boxes. It stands to reason that the oil will also degrade like in the auto boxes and cause faults in operation. That is why I want to replace the fluid before I go to the alternative of removing the box and firing the parts cannon at it....

Are you a mechanic that charges people

 

[dmccurtayne]

Not at all the same it’s a sealed system with no friction material

 

[AlexB]

350,000 km is a lot of laps of your wee island
A Gearbox oil change is 2.1 litres of 75W80, filled thru the vent hole.
The Actuator hydraulics reservoir is shown as item 5 in attached doco, I doubt it's the same oil as it is pressurised to 37 Bar....
My thoughts would be to check/adjust clutch bite point with diagtool, followed by changing normal gearbox oil as that may improve syncros etc.

 

[Will NZ]

Are you a mechanic that charges people

Long retired...

A Gearbox oil change is 2.1 litres of 75W80, filled thru the vent hole.
The Actuator hydraulics reservoir is shown as item 5 in attached doco, I doubt it's the same oil as it is pressurised to 37 Bar....
My thoughts would be to check/adjust clutch bite point with diagtool, followed by changing normal gearbox oil as that may improve syncros etc.

I have done an oil change of the gearbox itself, will hook up Diagbox in the morning and do a read etc. Oil for the hydraulic system is a SAE75W used across a number of european cars, just trying to find a local source for it so I dont have to wait for weeks. Can get this from UK if local doesnt pan out. The oil in the hydraulic reservoir is visible and is very black... OEM oil is supposed to be yellow according to google search.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/37427047...rentrq:7fd4fe3b1880ab9ca61704a9fffe6089|iid:1

 

[AlexB]

Can anybody help with draining/replacing the hydraulic oil and what can be used as alternative oil and how much is needed?

I have done an oil change of the gearbox itself,

OK, having covered the simpler culprits
Piloting Actuator Drain & Refill procedure
Select and validate the menus :
Gearbox ECU
Specific operations
Draining of the gearbox piloting actuator oil
Follow the instructions given in the diagnostic tool (The operation is automatic).
All the oil contained in the electrohydraulic actuator unit and in the pressure accumulator returns to the piloting actuator hydraulic reservoir.
Remove the piloting actuator to replace the piloting actuator hydraulic reservoir oil.

No mention of quantity, just fill to the maximum mark located on front of reservoir, so I guess you'll need to follow the procedures to remove the reservoir and tip it upside down to drain and measure the amount of SAE75W you'll need to buy.
Searching for alternatives to the mentioned SELENIA or TUTELA Car CS SPEED 75W oils may let you keep your first born at home

 

[AlexB]

tip it upside down to drain and measure the amount of SAE75W you'll need to buy.

Or a more sensible method after using Diagtool to return all the oil to the reservoir is to also check the level against the full mark and then suction it out to measure how much oil you'll need.
If you do find a cheaper 75W you could fill to the mark and then use diagtool to pressurise and drain a few times to maybe flush more of any remaining tainted black oil, suction that out and fill with fresh 75W?

 

[Frenchiemech34]

Use diagbox to de-pressurise the actuator then suck out all oil and refill with genuine fluid or buy ravenol gha-f actuator fluid available from imparts at a fraction of the cost.

Do the bleeding procedure on diagbox then check fluid again


These gearboxes are simple and only main issues on high mileage cars is the pump unit failure or sticking solenoids. Accumulator can also fail and there is tech bulletin on this and procedure to check for oil entry into electronic pump.


Other and only main failure is the concentric clutch slave assembly which is release bearing and slave in one unit, has a level or position sensor built in and often fails giving clutch actuator issues


I own many cars with this gearbox and fix many for people too with clutch replacement common with new slave assembly always must be changed at same time



Known as the EGS GEARBOX

 

[Will NZ]

Thanks AlexB and Frienchiemech34, just what I was looking for. Will carry out the change when I get some oil and report back on results.

 

[Ceenine]

I have done an extensive search and come up empty as to how to do a fluid change for the actuator mechanism in the piloted manual gearbox. Car is approaching 350 000 kms and recently has been playing up when shifting gears. I have vast experience with both the AL4 and AM6 auto boxes regarding the hydraulic blocks/solenoids going belly up, imo due to leaving the fluid unchanged because Peugeot saying that it is in for life.... yea right! 350 000 kms on this oil would surely have degraded it enormously... ?!! Clutch is fine in car, just the shifting of gears is becoming a bit sketchy, especially in the lower gears.

I can find info on servicebox as to how to depressurise/remove actuator mechanism/repressurise and bleed system, but nothing on how to drain/refill system. What if you replace the system with new unit? how do you go about refilling it? Another thing is what oil to be used. Stealer here in NZ wants first born child as deposit for oil, and EVERYTHING is a minimum of 3 week wait for it to come from France. Googling for alternative available compatible makes is a bit sketchy. Seems ZHM hydraulic oil is maybe equivalent? Penrite website suggests LHM oil may be good to go but it is marketed as a suspension oil.

Can anybody help with draining/replacing the hydraulic oil and what can be used as alternative oil and how much is needed?

I used Ravenol, 1 litre purchased from memory

 

[Will NZ]

Success! Shifting beautifully now. Oil was black and reservoir was coated in black residue. Had to remove the reservoir to clean it properly. To separate the reservoir from the pump/accumulator, I removed the pump/accumulator from the whole assembly leaving the control module in place. Once off, you can get to the second reservoir mounting screw which is hidden under the control module when everything is in situ.

I measured the existing fluid quantity in the reservoir - 510ml. Used the Ravenol link and did a search for compatible local oil. Found that Penrite could supply and it is available from both Supercheap and Repco. Their data sheet says it is compatible with Peugeot 9979.A4. Happy..!

Diagbox procedure to depressurise and repressurise and reprogram the system for my 2010 308 1.6hdi 5 door sedan was as follows.. (v7.57 used, checked with v9.68 and essentially the same).

Select REPAIR from main menu, it will do a scan. Once scan complete, go to GEARBOX option and validate, then select REPAIR again, then PACK REPAIR, then REPLACEMENT PARTS,, then GEARBOX PROGRAMMING, then DEPRESSURISATION OF HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT. You should hear the hydraulic motor kick in and run/pulse for a short while, then stop and I think it says operation terminated? Good to now remove the reservoir/pump/accumulator.

Once you have refitted the reservoir/pump/accumulator back, the Diagbox procedure to get it up and running again is as follows..

Select REPAIR from main menu, then REPAIR again, then PACK REPAIR, then REPLACEMENT PARTS,, then GEARBOX PROGRAMMING, then BLEEDING OF HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT, let it do its thing then select PRESSURISE HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT. Wait for it to stop, then onto reprogramming the whole system.

Select GEARBOX PROGRAMMING. It will detail the whole sequence of programming in the first screen, make notes if necessary.... follow it carefully!! Initially the programming is done with engine not running, then switches to engine running when it starts getting the clutch biting point adjusted. This is all done with motor cold... Once this is done, it goes onto the TRANSMISSIBILITY OF THE CLUTCH PROGRAMMING which is done on the road. This must be done with engine up to operating temperature. Just follow the instructions. You can drive the vehicle to where you do this stage, but DO NOT disconnect your Diagbox session or you will need to do the whole process again, starting with with engine cold...... leave Diagbox running and plugged in to diagnostic port. So laptop battery will need to be good or have an inverter/charger connected to laptop in vehicle.

 

[Whippet]

Success! Shifting beautifully now. Oil was black and reservoir was coated in black residue. Had to remove the reservoir to clean it properly. To separate the reservoir from the pump/accumulator, I removed the pump/accumulator from the whole assembly leaving the control module in place. Once off, you can get to the second reservoir mounting screw which is hidden under the control module when everything is in situ.

I measured the existing fluid quantity in the reservoir - 510ml. Used the Ravenol link and did a search for compatible local oil. Found that Penrite could supply and it is available from both Supercheap and Repco. Their data sheet says it is compatible with Peugeot 9979.A4. Happy..!

Diagbox procedure to depressurise and repressurise and reprogram the system for my 2010 308 1.6hdi 5 door sedan was as follows.. (v7.57 used, checked with v9.68 and essentially the same).

Select REPAIR from main menu, it will do a scan. Once scan complete, go to GEARBOX option and validate, then select REPAIR again, then PACK REPAIR, then REPLACEMENT PARTS,, then GEARBOX PROGRAMMING, then DEPRESSURISATION OF HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT. You should hear the hydraulic motor kick in and run/pulse for a short while, then stop and I think it says operation terminated? Good to now remove the reservoir/pump/accumulator.

Once you have refitted the reservoir/pump/accumulator back, the Diagbox procedure to get it up and running again is as follows..

Select REPAIR from main menu, then REPAIR again, then PACK REPAIR, then REPLACEMENT PARTS,, then GEARBOX PROGRAMMING, then BLEEDING OF HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT, let it do its thing then select PRESSURISE HYDRAULIC CIRCUIT. Wait for it to stop, then onto reprogramming the whole system.

Select GEARBOX PROGRAMMING. It will detail the whole sequence of programming in the first screen, make notes if necessary.... follow it carefully!! Initially the programming is done with engine not running, then switches to engine running when it starts getting the clutch biting point adjusted. This is all done with motor cold... Once this is done, it goes onto the TRANSMISSIBILITY OF THE CLUTCH PROGRAMMING which is done on the road. This must be done with engine up to operating temperature. Just follow the instructions. You can drive the vehicle to where you do this stage, but DO NOT disconnect your Diagbox session or you will need to do the whole process again, starting with with engine cold...... leave Diagbox running and plugged in to diagnostic port. So laptop battery will need to be good or have an inverter/charger connected to laptop in vehicle.

Hi.

Good that you have the clutch operating correctly again.

It would have been an interesting exercise to the perform the above Diagbox gearbox programming procedure prior to the oil being changed, and see if you achieved the same outcome. I suspect it would have.

Cheers.

 

[Will NZ]

I did and it didnt make much difference. shifting and clutch engagement was still somewhat skittery. I didnt perform the depressure-bleed-repressure. Rerservoir was full so decided it was unlikely to have air anywhere as there were no signs of any weeping at any of the pipes and mating syurfaces.

 

[Steven King]

Wondering is thread relevant to the trans. in a MY2013 C4GP HDi ?
Service Box has variously:

TRANSMISSION | 6-SPEED CONTROLLED MANUAL
GEARBOX ( CHARACTERISTICS ) | MCE GEARBOX
FINAL DRIVE RATIO | REAR AXLE HYPOID GEARSET 17 X 71
CLUTCH | WITHOUT CLUTCH
DIFFERENTIAL ( GEARBOX ) | W/O GEARBOX DIFF
GEARBOX TYPE | MC MANUAL GEARBOX

and nothing re flywheel ...

 

[AlexB]

Wondering is thread relevant to the trans. in a MY2013 C4GP HDi ?
Service Box has variously:

TRANSMISSION | 6-SPEED CONTROLLED MANUAL
GEARBOX ( CHARACTERISTICS ) | MCE GEARBOX
FINAL DRIVE RATIO | REAR AXLE HYPOID GEARSET 17 X 71
CLUTCH | WITHOUT CLUTCH
DIFFERENTIAL ( GEARBOX ) | W/O GEARBOX DIFF
GEARBOX TYPE | MC MANUAL GEARBOX

and nothing re flywheel ...

I would say probably yes, look thru the attachments in post#8 and see if your box looks the same

 

[Armidillo]

The key words surely are "CONTROLLED" and "WITHOUT CLUTCH". Pretty sure all Picassos sold in Australia at that time had the EGS box.