2006 Citroen C4 Auto | AL4 slipping in 1st gear eventually engages with a clunk, when warm

I had a thought about what shanadoo said it makes sense that it would be having problems with the E1 clutch. My issue is in 1st and reverse only. The only other common component is sunwheel 1 P1 but if that was the problem there would be heavy shudder while driving.

I am actually pretty happy to make this discovery because I can now rule out the brake bands! It means I somewhat have the possibility of just changing out the clutch packs. However I would need to source new clutch packs and correct tools for the clutch replacement. I only have the tools for the clearance checks.

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I will add the lucas additive before I look at the clutch pack change.

By the way I thought it was very easy to deal with the roller blade by leaving the gear selector in park, scribing the position on the gearbox and disconnecting it so that the roller blade was free to rotate. A bit of preload on the leaf spring bolt that is supposed to be tightened to 9Nm (say at 3Nm) and it is very easy to rotate the roller blade into the correct setting for park by hand provided the gear selector is disconnected. Tightening further to 9Nm doesn't make the leaf spring bolt jump off. A quick check confirmed that the scribed mark was aligned just as before I started disassembling.

Also the torx heads do not have a deep insert and can be easily stripped, even when torqueing to a mere 7.5 or 9Nm! This especially can happen if you are fooled into using a torx 30. Be careful! The correct bit is torx 35 which is not very commonly used compared to torx 30 and torx 40. Think of a 7mm hex head vs 6mm and 8mm hex head. The torx head bolts are all similar to each other and can be replaced by a 12.9 exact length cap head M6 bolt 1mm pitch with a washer if the torx head is completely stripped out.

David S said:
Maybe, I missed it, but did you read any fault codes from it?
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No fault codes as I only have OBD.
 
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Thanks dimistyle! Not in too much of a rush as it is the spare vehicle. I'll wait to see how much improvement the lucas additive provides before purchasing the clutch replacement kit. I'll also need to source the tools and decide whether to keep in the too hard basket or continue.
 
Tools? I use whatever is lying around like pieces of wood and a drill press for circlip removal/replacement. If you buy clutch kit form China, get PSA genuine article, China manufactures both brands but the cheaper unbranded units have a tendency to start disintegrating at low mileage.
 
shanadoo said:
Tools? I use whatever is lying around like pieces of wood and a drill press for circlip removal/replacement. If you buy clutch kit form China, get PSA genuine article, China manufactures both brands but the cheaper unbranded units have a tendency to start disintegrating at low mileage.
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Don't know what happened to this post, too many interruptions my end. GGGGRRR. When buying kits from China they'll usually offer genuine or local made. Always accept genuine [Made in Germany] The local China made stuff has a rougher finish and visual evidence suggests the plates start to disintegrate at a low mileage. Cheers.
 
Hi all, so it's been a while since I last posted. Still trying to solve my issues but I think it's slightly evolved.

Previously I was trying to fix the issue of the AL4 not going into first when the transmission was warm/hot. I was changed the oil a couple of times, replaced the two solenoids, and also the oil pressure sensor for the transmission.

It now comes up with "Auto Gearbox Fault" every now and then goes into limp mode when driving. I pull over to restart the car and it goes away, but eventually goes back into limp mode.

I'm out of ideas as to what to fix. Any ideas please?

Thanks so much

Jason
 
Does anyone want a set of clutches, bands and reconditioned drums? Pulled from a rebuilt trans that died very quickly because they failed to do the oil pump bushes. The frictions and the drums are in virtually new condition.

They're in a box at a mate's place in Canberra at present.
 
Haakon said:
Does anyone want a set of clutches, bands and reconditioned drums? Pulled from a rebuilt trans that died very quickly because they failed to do the oil pump bushes. The frictions and the drums are in virtually new condition.

They're in a box at a mate's place in Canberra at present.
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I would be keen! I'll pm you
 
Update - Haakon kindly provided me with a new condition E1 and E2 clutch already assembled on a shaft. Haakon also provided me with brake bands and drums. I will be doing a quick swap when I next have free time.
 
From removing and replacing an AL4 in a C5 way too many times I can tell you that removing the sub frame saves a lot of time. A flexi socket extension also helps disconnecting the gearbox from the motor.
Good luck and be patient
 
Haakon's parts were in perfect condition! Thanks heaps Haakon!

I did the change with the AL4 still on the car. I removed the old E1, E2, F1 assembly and replaced with the new parts. I also removed the piston for brake F2 thinking I could change out the brake band but I had no luck in reaching the top bolt for the brake band F2 even after removing all battery components as the transmission mount is in the way.

I used a jack to put brake F2 piston back in and sealed up the rear case and put some trans fluid in then started to test...

No leaks. However, trans fluid was a bit on the low side as not much was dripping from the drain bolt.

Tried first and reverse, for some reason it is worse. I must have reassembled incorrectly. I just went backwards and forwards one metre which required a fair bit of throttle. Tried second and same thing. It seems like every gear is slipping or there is a very heavy load. I then turned off the car as I didn't want to burn out the brand new parts.

Any ideas what I did wrong? The rear case sat about 1 cm off the rest of the transmission and only really sealed up once I tightened the bolts. It was actually very difficult to try and push it all the way onto the clutch assembly and try to make it sit flush on the main transmission case.

Also, getting the sunwheel to fit onto the brake F1 discs with the spring loaded mechanism is painful. I thought I assembled it all correctly but maybe this could be the issue? Maybe F1 is permanently engaged? Has anyone else done the swap with the transmission still on the car?

Torx 40 bolt heads are annoying! I will be replacing them with M8 cap screws 45mm length and 1.25mm pitch next time I take the rear case off!

Has anyone ever experienced with old parts or new parts after swapping them out? Could it be the low oil? I am reluctant to put more new oil in if I am going to take the rear case off again to figure out the issue.
 
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If 1 thing i learnt on these AL4, s is dont attempt to go through the side as if you get it wrong and bolt the cover on theres a good chance you have broken the crush bearing, I damaged at least 2 of these hard to come by roller bearing washers.

Shanadoo showed me the way as he had down quite a few clutch replacements from the side.

No movement with a lot of revs sounds like clutch gaps are wrong as pressure is not closing the plates enough.
Of course you do need the correct oil level to get the correct pressure in the case

If you have access to PP2000 you should be able to read the case pressure, but if assembled incorrectly no amount of pressure will cure this.

If you can see the brake band you will notice if broken as the 2 halves will be separated, I cant remember if you can replace from the side, dont start undoing the bolts under the mount unless you know it the correct one otherwise things will start dropping internally.

Theres a AL4 repair manual somewhere on AF that shows how to remove the bands if required, but clutches from the side need patience/ determination as Shanadoo showed me Vasoleen to hold the crush bearing in place as you slide the whole thing back in place. Make sure all the clutch plates are lined up so the springs to the work, and have a helper on hand that can put pressure on the side cover to screw back in place.

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c4nub said:
Any ideas what I did wrong? The rear case sat about 1 cm off the rest of the transmission and only really sealed up once I tightened the bolts. It was actually very difficult to try and push it all the way onto the clutch assembly and try to make it sit flush on the main transmission case.

Torx 40 bolt heads are annoying! I will be replacing them with M8 cap screws 45mm length and 1.25mm pitch next time I take the rear case off!
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Any ideas what I did wrong? The rear case sat about 1 cm off the rest of the transmission and only really sealed up once I tightened the bolts. It was actually very difficult to try and push it all the way onto the clutch assembly and try to make it sit flush on the main transmission case".

The end cover should push all the way home in one movement and with hardly any force at all. It can be held in situ with one finger whilst the bolts are inserted [it only needs a couple bolts, finger tight, to hold it in place]

But I'm sorry 'ol buddy but youv'e probably destroyed the E1 brake assy. I would guess the plates are now bent and usless because they were not correctly lined up when trying to install the end cover. Plus as dimistyle has said, the thrust bearing is probably shattered as well.
Gently gently, check twice is the method.

Cap screws are a good idea, they're a lot better than those pathetic torx bolts. A tip maybe when trying to undo those torx beasties and enable their reuse, is to use a steel punch which will fit down the centre of the head and give it a good whack. Or just hit the head of the bolt hard using the appropriate soft drift and heavy hammer. Have luck.
 
Dimistyle and Shanadoo thank you for your wisdom here. It seems my mistake was in re-assembly.

I will take it apart and let you know what damage I can see. How far should sunwheel P1 sit in the assembly? Should the face of P1 sit flush against planet carrier PS1? I found that the return spacer with the springs for brake F1 made it extremely difficult to get all 3 of the internal toothed F1 brake discs located inside the external slots of sunwheel P1. They would fall out a bit every time and I thought it was normal for the assembly to re-align itself given the spring movement has such a long throw.

I'll have a look at the thrust bearing and inspect. Is it easier to vaseline or oil up the thrust bearing onto P1 or PS1 prior tp assembly? What is the best way to check the thrust bearing is on properly and will not shatter?

Shanadoo the E1 and E2 plates definitely looked aligned. Do you mean the F1 brake discs would be warped? If so I have hope as the original F1 discs seem to be in good shape. I don't have access to a compressor in order to redo the E1 assembly and I was fortunate enough that Haakon provided me with a whole assembly ready to go in very good condition.

I'm learning a lot through this transmission. I'm learning about poor design and good design! There's some very smart features but the fact that the E1 and E2 assembly is the size of a 600cc motorcycle clutch is very odd! But the epicyclic system is such a great concept and great space saver.
 
Sorry typo error, it should be F1 brake. That thrust bearing should be a locked pre assembled unit, but it may not be. If it's not, then wash the bearing in petrol or such to remove any oil. Dry off and pack it with vaso [love lube is the name] to hold it in place. Vaso won't contaminate the oil. The plates of the F1 brake will have the driving lugs bent through not being aligned when the case was forced closed by bolting. Hopefully there shouldn't be any other damage.
Make sure the new plates are perfectly aligned with their corresponding slots in the drum, compress the assembled brake by hand to confirm this before attempting to fit the end cover.
The cover must be hand fitted [very little pressure required] before bolting. If it surprises you and goes home don't let it go under any circumstances.
Patience is required to succeed. Force nothing. You may have several attempts, just remember if the cover does not slide home completely, the misalignment of those F1 plates are the cause. Realign and try again.

Small clutch packs? Well this transmission is a slip change unit designed to alleviate sudden torque pressures and boy racers. Don't give yourself a migraine thinking about it 'ol buddy.
Stay calm and relaxed, Good luck & Cheers.
 
Thank you Shanadoo! Maybe I will try using vaseline on the F1 brake discs to keep them in place against the P1 sunwheel and spring loaded return spacer assembly. Or hold them in place with a screwdriver or sometape or something that I can remove. Will update when I next work on it!
 
Haha yeah it does need octopus tentacles. Maybe I will get two screwdrivers and try that out.

Thanks for checking with the thrust bearing. Will let you know about the state of mine when I pull it apart next.
 
I took the assembly apart and what do you know the top two discs of the F1 brake assembly had visible damage marks and indents. No bending though. Luckily the old brake F1 discs were in ok condition so I replaced the top three from the new pack with the three best from the old.

I spent hours trying to put it in without the F1 discs slipping. Getting the discs on in place is the easy part and letting them not slip is the hard part. Every time there is a jolt from aligning the different gear teeth on the input shaft to the gearbox or when putting the rear housing cover on they slipped and it could be heard. On top of that when I thought I had it right there was still a 5mm or so gap that I could not determine if it was the top disc had slipped or the springs being too stiff. There was no way for me to tell so I would start again hoping the rear housing would go home in one hit one time.

Hours later I decided to just go buy some vaseline and lather it on every F1 brake disc liberally. 50 grams of vaseline for 6 faces and all the discs were stuck to the return spacer. The top plate of brake F1 assembly was flush on the gearbox the whole time. Did one assembly and still found a gap of about 5mm on the rear housing. I took it apart and what do you know the F1 discs were still in position. I reassembled and still 5mm gap but was able to hand tighten to about 2 or 3mm gap each time.

So I am very grateful for the eternal wisdom from shanadoo and dimistyle as vaseline got it right first go.

I didnt have time to test drive but in the driveway the car felt great through reverse to 3rd gear. Fingers crossed all will be well. Will update soon.
 
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Love lube, the product of many uses. Although these days I don't use it for anything except thrust bearings and O rings. And you can take that as you will. I usually coat the brake plates liberally with trans fluid and find they stay in place. That 5mm should only be the distance required to compress the brake pressure plate springs. If everything is internally aligned you should feel very little resistance when pushing the end cover gently home that last 5mm.
Hope you've got it correct and it's all working. Well done. Cheers.
 
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