XM (Series 1?) Window Down

[JAJEA]

Drivers window decided to go down on its own volition this afternoon.

Another quirk of the XM?

Tried a number of times, switching off, locking unlocking; LHS works OK, so nothing wrong with fuse.

Is there an easy / obvious fix?

Regards,

John

 

[DoubleChevron]

have a look at ebay UK. You should be able to buy a repair kit for the winder mechanism.... Actually for an XM it's not a difficult job... just fiddly

 

[David S]

That can happen when the cable rusts through and suddenly lets go and the glass drops by itself. The motor runs, but the glass doesn't move. I had this problem a few months ago. Take the regulator out, tape/wedge the glass up and repair at leisure. Early regs are different to late ones and the guide clip that runs up and down was sold as a separate part. As Shane mentioned, you can buy a cable repair kit or just do it yourself if you can make and swage a steel end onto a new length of cable. Do not operate the window any more as you will run the cable around the drum and do it more damage. I have stainless cable, some spare clip kits and also regulators from a 1990/91 XM if you get stuck. If it's certainly not an external electrical fault, remove the regulator and inspect it.

You will need to know how to remove the internal door lock knob thingy. It should be like Xantia and later XM in that in the unlocked position you se a small square opening in the knob. You have to carefully push the plastic bit in and down to release it. It should then slide up and out. We'll get to refitting it properly later.

 

[JAJEA]

Shane and David Hi,

I do not think it is a machanical problem.

The glass seemed to have been wound down under power.

I am very familiar with the current cable "winch drive system used in modern vehicles" as I have just fixed our Audi A4 drivers window for the 3rd time. The cable guides that direct the 2 cables into the motor drive winch mechanism brake at the entry point and thus the cables are not uniformly directed onto the winch drum (as one guide only needs to break).

The window glass made no strange sounds whatsoever as the XM was on its way to an interim inspection for a VicRoads RWC. It was picked up some 4+ months ago and driven down from Sydney. [I have recuperating from surgery and now keen to have it registered.]

Changing the subject somewhat, regretfully, it is going to need a lot more work than anticated before it will be acceptable for a RWC.

One other obvious issue is that the Macpherson struts protection rubbers are completly shot and I was proposing to completly remove any evidence of their existance so it does not become an issue with the RWC certifier in due course.

Early Macpherson struts did not have the rubber bellows that I recall.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

John

 

[David S]

Take out the switch and check it operates freely. Does it have the rubbish one-touch switch with 4 buttons or just the regular up/down type? The regular one in particular can 'stick' or catch in their recess. This may help with the general switch design:
Switches with LEDs | Citroën BX do-it-yourself

You want the gaiter on the strut to protect it. They are not a replaceable item like a regular shock absorber and it is actually a suspension cylinder. If the car has had the later strut tops fitted, the diameter is a fraction larger and you need the later gaiter (alligator!). Xantia has the same part. They are quite easily replaced, but it's a bit messy and you may need to make up your own tool to get the strut to let go at the top taper. The bump stops may be rubbish too. They push right up inside the top mount. These may help:
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/119705-xantia-parts-cherche-advice.html
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/101762-removing-xantia-strut-tops.html
among other discussions of the job. Same process in XM and Xantia.

 

[JAJEA]

Thanks David.

Yep, the rubbish 4 button switch, I'll check it out tomorrow.

Are the gaiters available albeit from a later vehicle? I did not want to do too much to this Citroen as I have enough to do with my DS Pallas 23 IE. So be it.

John

Take out the switch and check it operates freely. Does it have the rubbish one-touch switch with 4 buttons or just the regular up/down type? The regular one in particular can 'stick' or catch in their recess. This may help with the general switch design:
Switches with LEDs | Citroën BX do-it-yourself

You want the gaiter on the strut to protect it. They are not a replaceable item like a regular shock absorber and it is actually a suspension cylinder. If the car has had the later strut tops fitted, the diameter is a fraction larger and you need the later gaiter (alligator!). Xantia has the same part. They are quite easily replaced, but it's a bit messy and you may need to make up your own tool to get the strut to let go at the top taper. The bump stops may be rubbish too. They push right up inside the top mount. This may help:
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/101762-removing-xantia-strut-tops.html
among other discussions of the job. Same process in XM and Xantia.

 

[JAJEA]

Update.

Pulled every apart. Switch OK (removed it and reinstalled in another XM - operated beautifully), cables OK and motor OK. Believe to now be the box of tricks that change current flow from positive to negative and vice versa.

However, I have not tackled that yet as I have made it difficult for myself.

In pulling everything off (without a manual) I had pulled out the front glass mounting rubber guide (with hindsight, I should not have) and now I'm unable to reinsert rubber.

To do so, it appears that I need to remove the front window strut that the rubber guide and the front fixed quarter panel glass is mounted to.

Question, how do I remove that front strut? It appears that the strut is bonded to the fixed glass.





Regards,

John
I was tempted to smash the g

Thanks David.

Yep, the rubbish 4 button switch, I'll check it out tomorrow.

Are the gaiters available albeit from a later vehicle? I did not want to do too much to this Citroen as I have enough to do with my DS Pallas 23 IE. So be it.

John

 

[David S]

You should be able to slip it back in the way you took it out. Bend/lift the middle of the horizontals inwards to shorten them a little and allow space to get the front diagonal back in the slot. Do not think of trying to break the glass. The small panes on each door and also the C-pillars are bonded to the car. The factory repair for the c-pillars treats the glass a single use only.

Unable to buy a new 4 button switch, I took mine apart to clean the contacts. It then didn't work as Id had to break the little dabs of plastic that hold the spring steel contact plate in the right position. I eventually drilled some very small holes through the casing and tied it back together with flower arrangement wire. Works perfectly ... until the plastic pivots wear out and the buttons fall off. It took me a while to figure out how to approach it. I must take it apart again one day and replace the small globes with 12V LEDs with an integrated resistor.

 

[JAJEA]

Thanks David, I'll try again (in due course) but it seemed that the rubber molding needed to be attacked from both sides to get it in and of course the glass is there. Yes, I got so frustrated that I considered smashing the fixed glass pane.
In one way I was cheesed off when the switch operated OK in another XM.
John

You should be able to slip it back in the way you took it out. Bend/lift the middle of the horizontals inwards to shorten them a little and allow space to get the front diagonal back in the slot. Do not think of trying to break the glass. The small panes on each door and also the C-pillars are bonded to the car. The factory repair for the c-pillars treats the glass a single use only.

Unable to buy a new 4 button switch, I took mine apart to clean the contacts. It then didn't work as Id had to break the little dabs of plastic that hold the spring steel contact plate in the right position. I eventually drilled some very small holes through the casing and tied it back together with flower arrangement wire. Works perfectly ... until the plastic pivots wear out and the buttons fall off. It took me a while to figure out how to approach it. I must take it apart again one day and replace the small globes with 12V LEDs with an integrated resistor.

 

[David S]

You have to lower the glass to refit the trim strip of course. Can you operate the motor by applying 12V to it?

Depending on the regulator/motor type, another possibility is that the switchgear and wiring is OK, but the fault is where the motor feed is joined to the regulator socket pins and hidden by encapsulant. This was the reason for a later window reg in a 24V car not working. In that case, there was no mechanical fault and the motor was fine, but just no longer connected due to the hidden rusted joint. It's a little difficult to repair and not at all obvious.

Do you need the glass R&R instructions and wiring diagram? What year is it?

 

[JAJEA]

Hi David,
XM is a September 1990 manufacture dated vehicle with the .SFZ V6.

The whole mechanism operated beautifully by supplying 12V +ve and -ve to the motor.

If does not get too hot (Melbourne weather), I'll have a go tomorrow. And yes I would love a copy of the R & R workshop manual for the Glass just in case.
John

You have to lower the glass to refit the trim strip of course. Can you operate the motor by applying 12V to it?

Depending on the regulator/motor type, another possibility is that the switchgear and wiring is OK, but the fault is where the motor feed is joined to the regulator socket pins and hidden by encapsulant. This was the reason for a later window reg in a 24V car not working. In that case, there was no mechanical fault and the motor was fine, but just no longer connected due to the hidden rusted joint. It's a little difficult to repair and not at all obvious.

Do you need the glass R&R instructions and wiring diagram? What year is it?

 

[DoubleChevron]

Is the 4way switch just 'one touch" .. You can likely just swap a standard switch in and loose the one touch up and down functionality. Reminds me ... I have the front passenger window stuck all the way down in the CX too.... bloody thing, I knew that would happen if I woudn the windows down. My fix has been to park it in a shed ... still leaves a big gaping hole in the side of the car for bloody cats and mice to get in. In my case, it'll be the relay, only I've never needed to find it before on a series II CX ... so i'm going to have to go hunting oneday when I have time.

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[JAJEA]

Thanks Shane, I would not hesitate to do away with the one touch function but after pulling it apart i found that the switch was OK. I just expected bigger problems considering its age.
Now I have a new problem of getting the front rubber back into the front strut between the fixed glass and window glass.
John

 

[JAJEA]

Thanks David, took a little while to decide to pull it all off and start again from the front. Relatively easy thereafter.

Door card housing the electronics/relays is elsewhere so I'll check it out another day.

John

Hi David,
XM is a September 1990 manufacture dated vehicle with the .SFZ V6.

The whole mechanism operated beautifully by supplying 12V +ve and -ve to the motor.

If does not get too hot (Melbourne weather), I'll have a go tomorrow. And yes I would love a copy of the R & R workshop manual for the Glass just in case.
John

 

[DoubleChevron]

have you found the window relays yet It is possible the one touch control unit (mounted ont he door trim ? ) has died or got dry solder joints. Are the relays above the fuses in the fuse box? I can't remember.

seeya
Shane L.

 

[David S]

There will be a box (large cigarette pack size) made by Bitron in the RHF door since S1 XM has the sequential control separate to the regulator. Look for it on the moulded door card under the pocket and secured by two screws. Later cars had the sequential control and anti-pinch control box incorporated in the regulator motor assembly.

This may help ... https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28868
Corrosion, dry joint or a bad cap etc. may be the cause if it's not a simple wiring fault.

I can't find the correct wiring diagram at present, but this could give you some pointers on which pins do what:
The CityBug Blog: One-touch power windows

To remove and refit the door lock clip has always been a hassle. Looking for the door info this evening, I came across this gem, which should assist XM and Xantia owners:

Essentially, to refit, you have to move the lug to the bottom position, fit it to the rod an in the slot in the surround and push down, locking the door (sit inside, door closed), then push down until it clips into place in the locked position. If the clip inside is ruined, they were sold separately, but have since turned up on ebay as aftermarket items. If you get it wrong pull it up and remove it to try again. It's still a bit of a fiddle.

To get the glass out, the book is saying lower the glass 1/3rd, unclip the retainer, free the glass from the regulator peg and it should pivot forward to allow you to remove lift it up. Obviously, this is with the door partly stripped. the quarter glass is bonded in to the door and you have to cut it out. The vertical strut comes out with the quarter glass after removing the two nuts. Sorry, I baulked at scanning all the door info though. Most of it is not too hard to figure out. There is nothing really hidden, bit you need to be aware of the plastic guide clip at the top corners adjacent to the B-pillar of each mobile glass pane. They are NFP, so do not break them as you need them to guide the glass up and down properly.

If you lose the glass retainer C-clip moulded onto the guide/slider with a strap, there is an old TSB that tells you to fit a metal clip 7903066995, which CX Basis carry: CX-BASIS :: eShop
It's apparently used as a CX accelerator clip, so we'll have to wreck 4 x CX per XM.

 

[DoubleChevron]

There will be a box (large cigarette pack size) made by Bitron in the RHF door since S1 XM has the sequential control separate to the regulator. Look for it on the moulded door card under the pocket and secured by two screws. Later cars had the sequential control and anti-pinch control box incorporated in the regulator motor assembly.

This may help ... https://frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28868
Corrosion, dry joint or a bad cap etc. may be the cause if it's not a simple wiring fault.

I can't find the correct wiring diagram at present, but this could give you some pointers on which pins do what:
The CityBug Blog: One-touch power windows

To remove and refit the door lock clip has always been a hassle. Looking for the door info this evening, I came across this gem, which should assist XM and Xantia owners:
View attachment 102869
Essentially, to refit, you have to move the lug to the bottom position, fit it to the rod an in the slot in the surround and push down, locking the door (sit inside, door closed), then push down until it clips into place in the locked position. If the clip inside is ruined, they were sold separately, but have since turned up on ebay as aftermarket items. If you get it wrong pull it up and remove it to try again. It's still a bit of a fiddle.

To get the glass out, the book is saying lower the glass 1/3rd, unclip the retainer, free the glass from the regulator peg and it should pivot forward to allow you to remove lift it up. Obviously, this is with the door partly stripped. the quarter glass is bonded in to the door and you have to cut it out. The vertical strut comes out with the quarter glass after removing the two nuts. Sorry, I baulked at scanning all the door info though. Most of it is not too hard to figure out. There is nothing really hidden, bit you need to be aware of the plastic guide clip at the top corners adjacent to the B-pillar of each mobile glass pane. They are NFP, so do not break them as you need them to guide the glass up and down properly.

If you lose the glass retainer C-clip moulded onto the guide/slider with a strap, there is an old TSB that tells you to fit a metal clip 7903066995, which CX Basis carry: CX-BASIS :: eShop
It's apparently used as a CX accelerator clip, so we'll have to wreck 4 x CX per XM.

There is nothing special about that clip used on a CX accellerator cable. Its quite light weight. I'm sure you could readily find something around the shed that will replicate its function without having to order it in!

seeya
Shane L.

 

[JAJEA]

Thanks, David and Shane, boy it's going to be easy next time.

Next task is to tackle the magic box of tricks that controls the power supply to the winder being +ve or -ve.

Regards,

John

There is nothing special about that clip used on a CX accellerator cable. Its quite light weight. I'm sure you could readily find something around the shed that will replicate its function without having to order it in!

seeya
Shane L.

 

[JAJEA]

Back to the XM Window.

Door switch OK, supply 12V direct to motor window goes up and down beautifully (changing polarity of course). Connect it all up - no go.

Pulled out, disassembled (exposed circuit board and relays) Bitron control unit located in door card.





Question? How do I check that it is OK? It (the relays within) make a clicking noise that they are working but no idea if there is current flow between contacts.

Does anybody have a spare that I can borrow and eventually buy if the bitron is the problem.

Regards,

John

Thanks, David and Shane, boy it's going to be easy next time.

Next task is to tackle the magic box of tricks that controls the power supply to the winder being +ve or -ve.

Regards,

John

 

[JohnW]

Seems to me there's a lot to say for window winders with handles.... What superb, detailed information from David!