Two new racecars in NZ

[Frans]

I'll re-cap here to keep this thread going.

Johan and I went to Pukekohe last Saturday for some testing. Nothing serious or fatal happened. My car ran well after I increased the fuel pressure and he suffered some electrical gremlin.

As mentioned above, I installed 2 server fans in front of the oil cooler that is switched on automatically when I race and off after the checkered flag. Saturday was the first time I could test it and it is a great success. The oil temp went up to just over 140 C and obviously, the water temp was running constantly at thermostat temps, 80 C.

A special thanks to Dauphproto that mentioned the gearbox oils he is using in the "4-speed in 4CV" thread. The Millers oils are not available here in NZ so I took a chance on the Lucas oil. I got myself a can of Lucas oil, drained the Mineral oil, and left it for a few days open to drain. On Friday just before the testing, I filled the box with the Lucas oil and I could not believe the difference. With a hot gearbox, around lap 6 or 7 I grated the gears from 2nd to 3rd every time. With the new oil, I didn't notice anything of the kind. It remained a smooth shift all the way.

The first race of the season is on the weekend of the 24th and 25th September and I hope to do the whole season as in the past without the Covid sh!t.

I will keep you informed with the good news and hopefully, there will be no bad news.

Regards, Frans.

 

[geckoeng]

I'll re-cap here to keep this thread going.

Johan and I went to Pukekohe last Saturday for some testing. Nothing serious or fatal happened. My car ran well after I increased the fuel pressure and he suffered some electrical gremlin.

As mentioned above, I installed 2 server fans in front of the oil cooler that is switched on automatically when I race and off after the checkered flag. Saturday was the first time I could test it and it is a great success. The oil temp went up to just over 140 C and obviously, the water temp was running constantly at thermostat temps, 80 C.

A special thanks to Dauphproto that mentioned the gearbox oils he is using in the "4-speed in 4CV" thread. The Millers oils are not available here in NZ so I took a chance on the Lucas oil. I got myself a can of Lucas oil, drained the Mineral oil, and left it for a few days open to drain. On Friday just before the testing, I filled the box with the Lucas oil and I could not believe the difference. With a hot gearbox, around lap 6 or 7 I grated the gears from 2nd to 3rd every time. With the new oil, I didn't notice anything of the kind. It remained a smooth shift all the way.

The first race of the season is on the weekend of the 24th and 25th September and I hope to do the whole season as in the past without the Covid sh!t.

I will keep you informed with the good news and hopefully, there will be no bad news.

Regards, Frans.

I am so glad I brought Dauphproto out of retirement, he seems to have helped a lot of people with his experience, in particular with race setups, He is a virulent racing fan. He has just helped me with building a Big 5 Speed and getting it rapidly to our container about to come from the UK. A good friend.

 

[dauphproto]

That Lucas oil is really good and not crazy expensive. Glad it made an improvement. Onward........

 

[4cvgordini]

On oils, any thoughts an the Redline Light Weight Shockproof? Following comments by Alan Moore, I have moved to it for R8, 4CVG & Djet.

 

[dauphproto]

Beware of shockproof, this term is usually reserved for Dog boxes and plate LSD and is kiss of death for synchro boxes. Always remember competition boxes are usually non synchro. We are using road boxes for racing. Friction modifiers and cushioning properties are not for synchro use.
You have been warned.........

LightWeight is a unique gear oil designed to lubricate racing transmissions and transaxles which see serious loads (not recommended for most syncro-type transmissions). It has excellent low-temperature flow which allows easier shifting when cold. May be used to obtain maximum power transfer in racing differentials which do not see high temperatures. Similar to a 75W140 gear oil, but with the lower internal friction of an SAE 30 motor oil.
This taken from Redline's website.
Do not use in Renault transaxles

 

[nauli]

I am so glad I brought Dauphproto out of retirement, he seems to have helped a lot of people with his experience, in particular with race setups, He is a virulent racing fan. He has just helped me with building a Big 5 Speed and getting it rapidly to our container about to come from the UK. A good friend.

View attachment 209601

I need a 5 speed too!

 

[R8 Dream]

I had been running Redline Lightweight Shockproof in my Big Box that has a Quaiffe lsd for around a year and probably do about 3-4 events, so other than being a bit stiff when changing gears cold (only really for shifting 1st to 2nd), it provided exceptional shifting up and down in each gear - and was particularly smooth and outstanding when fully warmed up on the track.
After reading the above comments about the damage it would do to the synchromeshes I changed over to the Lucas 75W140 after reading about Frans’s positive experience - but I immediately noticed how thick it was, it was like pouring syrup, so I figured it would be better.
Well, went for a road drive today for an hour in traffic and I was experiencing constant gear crunch nearlly all day when shifting from 2nd to 3rd with any haste (only up shifting, not down) and not any other gear. So to reduce this I was consciously slow up shifting to control and limit this crunch. my experience was in fact the exact opposite to Frans’s experience with the Lucas oil?
Even when firs running 75W90 a few years ago, I had never had this gear crunch, so I am really puzzled as to when this has now suddenly appeared?
I think I’ll be going back to the standard 75W90 next week and see what happens, but I’d really appreciate some thoughts on this issue?

 

[dauphproto]

That's Strange The Lucas 75/140 I use is quite thin. I wonder if there are different types within their brand. I'll try to get a pic of the bottle for comparison.
Problem with gear oil makers is that a lot of Racing or Motorsport products are designed for Dog boxes which have no Friction clutches (Synchros) in them, they have some super slippery compounds in them which are good for gears not for synchros.
I use Millers 75/110 NT which is super thin like 3 in 1 (do you get that in OZ) it is wonderful, but keeping it inside the box is an issue and I don't think it is available in the Antipodes. Millers are a brand that tend to do 2 versions of every oil they make, a synchro and non synchro version. I used to use Millers 80/140 which was like treacle on a cold day, you had to warm the box up before using in anger, then it was fine.
3rd is always the first synchro to wear in any box, the symptoms you describe are in line with too much drag in the box (thick oil) causing the crunch on the upshift.

 

[R8 Dream]

That's Strange The Lucas 75/140 I use is quite thin. I wonder if there are different types within their brand. I'll try to get a pic of the bottle for comparison.
Problem with gear oil makers is that a lot of Racing or Motorsport products are designed for Dog boxes which have no Friction clutches (Synchros) in them, they have some super slippery compounds in them which are good for gears not for synchros.
I use Millers 75/110 NT which is super thin like 3 in 1 (do you get that in OZ) it is wonderful, but keeping it inside the box is an issue and I don't think it is available in the Antipodes. Millers are a brand that tend to do 2 versions of every oil they make, a synchro and non synchro version. I used to use Millers 80/140 which was like treacle on a cold day, you had to warm the box up before using in anger, then it was fine.
3rd is always the first synchro to wear in any box, the symptoms you describe are in line with too much drag in the box (thick oil) causing the crunch on the upshift.

I think what I must have used was something a bit like the Millers 80/140, and as it is certainly like treacle!
This is the Lucas oil I used, it’s the Heavyduty High Performance SAE 85W/140. See attached.
Although the tech data says “it can be used” with LSDs, it stops short of saying that it “is recommended”.
reading a bit closer it seems to be better suited to trucks probably with heavy duty gearboxes etc although There is a mention of race car applications, although I suspect high powered ones (like high capacity V8s)
I’ve never seen the Millers, so probably not available in Aust, but I read that the 75/110NT is not suitable for LSDs, (although exceeds GL-4 and GL-5 standards), but I see that Millers does offer a 75/90LS oil suitable for LSDs - and what I had been using before the Redline, was is the Penrite 80W/90 and is compatible with LSDs And GL-5 standard. I was happy with it, but was looking for something’better’ in the Redline.
I’ll be draining the Lucas tonight and replacing it with the Penrite Over the week.
Until I put the Lucas oil in, I’ve never had my gear grind in 3-4th, and there has been hardly much use in the last 3 years (with 2 years of COVID cancelling all motor sport events) so no convinced the syncro is worn.
but I’ll report back after I have changed This oil out.

 

[COL]

I think what I must have used was something a bit like the Millers 80/140, and as it is certainly like treacle!
This is the Lucas oil I used, it’s the Heavyduty High Performance SAE 85W/140. See attached.
Although the tech data says “it can be used” with LSDs, it stops short of saying that it “is recommended”.
reading a bit closer it seems to be better suited to trucks probably with heavy duty gearboxes etc although There is a mention of race car applications, although I suspect high powered ones (like high capacity V8s)
I’ve never seen the Millers, so probably not available in Aust, but I read that the 75/110NT is not suitable for LSDs, (although exceeds GL-4 and GL-5 standards), but I see that Millers does offer a 75/90LS oil suitable for LSDs - and what I had been using before the Redline, was is the Penrite 80W/90 and is compatible with LSDs And GL-5 standard. I was happy with it, but was looking for something’better’ in the Redline.
I’ll be draining the Lucas tonight and replacing it with the Penrite Over the week.
Until I put the Lucas oil in, I’ve never had my gear grind in 3-4th, and there has been hardly much use in the last 3 years (with 2 years of COVID cancelling all motor sport events) so no convinced the syncro is worn.
but I’ll report back after I have changed This oil out.

I have used Valvoline 75W-80 gear oil, I used this for many years in my Renault R12 transaxles without any problems. I couldn't find a single grade 80 at the time so thought this was a good compromise.

I could even do clutchless changes without crunching the gears. I'm now using Castrol VMX80, gear changes using the clutch are nice and smooth but clutchless chnages seem to grind more than when I was using the Valvoline oil.

Just my worth

 

[Frans]

I think what I must have used was something a bit like the Millers 80/140, and as it is certainly like treacle!
This is the Lucas oil I used, it’s the Heavyduty High Performance SAE 85W/140. See attached.
Although the tech data says “it can be used” with LSDs, it stops short of saying that it “is recommended”.
reading a bit closer it seems to be better suited to trucks probably with heavy duty gearboxes etc although There is a mention of race car applications, although I suspect high powered ones (like high capacity V8s)
I’ve never seen the Millers, so probably not available in Aust, but I read that the 75/110NT is not suitable for LSDs, (although exceeds GL-4 and GL-5 standards), but I see that Millers does offer a 75/90LS oil suitable for LSDs - and what I had been using before the Redline, was is the Penrite 80W/90 and is compatible with LSDs And GL-5 standard. I was happy with it, but was looking for something’better’ in the Redline.
I’ll be draining the Lucas tonight and replacing it with the Penrite Over the week.
Until I put the Lucas oil in, I’ve never had my gear grind in 3-4th, and there has been hardly much use in the last 3 years (with 2 years of COVID cancelling all motor sport events) so no convinced the syncro is worn.
but I’ll report back after I have changed This oil out.

Angelo, it seems to me that you have bought the wrong stuff. This oil is very thin and it is fully synthetic. Here is the oil that I bought and I have taken it directly from info Dauphproto pasted.

I have had a full race last Sunday under very hot conditions and again the gearbox synchro was unbeatable.

Frans.

 

[Frans]

Here is an extract from the post in the "4 speed ......" thread. The highlighted is what I got and put into the box.

To make the point The box in my Dauph had a slightly noisy 2nd gear it was also slow on the shift cold. I had tried a few different mixtures without much success and took a punt on Millers oils 75/110W NT gear oil a modern synthetic. What a revelation, a quiet free shifting box cold or hot, the only drawback is it is very thin, so you need the drip tray. The quietness was unbelievable, it has a Mainshaft, gears and hubs from different sources ,so was never going to be quiet. Lucas oil products do a 75/140 synthetic which I usually use in customer builds. Lucas claim it to be compatible with everything and the price is sensible. It may be worth an e-mail to their tech dept to check suitability on old synchro rings.

Frans.

 

[COL]

I think what I must have used was something a bit like the Millers 80/140, and as it is certainly like treacle!
This is the Lucas oil I used, it’s the Heavyduty High Performance SAE 85W/140. See attached.
Although the tech data says “it can be used” with LSDs, it stops short of saying that it “is recommended”.
reading a bit closer it seems to be better suited to trucks probably with heavy duty gearboxes etc although There is a mention of race car applications, although I suspect high powered ones (like high capacity V8s)
I’ve never seen the Millers, so probably not available in Aust, but I read that the 75/110NT is not suitable for LSDs, (although exceeds GL-4 and GL-5 standards), but I see that Millers does offer a 75/90LS oil suitable for LSDs - and what I had been using before the Redline, was is the Penrite 80W/90 and is compatible with LSDs And GL-5 standard. I was happy with it, but was looking for something’better’ in the Redline.
I’ll be draining the Lucas tonight and replacing it with the Penrite Over the week.
Until I put the Lucas oil in, I’ve never had my gear grind in 3-4th, and there has been hardly much use in the last 3 years (with 2 years of COVID cancelling all motor sport events) so no convinced the syncro is worn.
but I’ll report back after I have changed This oil out.

Angelo, it seems to me that you have bought the wrong stuff. This oil is very thin and it is fully synthetic. Here is the oil that I bought and I have taken it directly from info Dauphproto pasted.

I have had a full race last Sunday under very hot conditions and again the gearbox synchro was unbeatable.

Frans.View attachment 210854View attachment 210855

On your 2nd pic Angelo it says to add the product that you have until the desired viscosity is reached. So would suggest it is used to make thin gearbox oil a little thicker.

 

[dauphproto]

I think you got the wrong stuff 85/140 will be Treacle until about lap 3. It is worth mentioning that the reason to use a high index oil is that I am putting 135lbs ft through a trans designed for about a hundred, so it is going to struggle and the extra capacity in the lube is vital to prolong life when parts are non existant. The Shearing forces on the oil with a Hypoid Bevel are quite incredible, which is why an EP oil is needed the gears in the box would be fine with a much lighter oil as they are about 4-12 times less stressed depending on which gear you are in.

 

[dauphproto]

@R8 Dream Don't worry about the LSD thing. Once again it is a case of mistaken identity. You don't have an LSD you have an ATB which requires no special additives unlike a plate diff which does. Plate diffs and Dog boxes like the same stuff. Synchro's and Quaifes Like the same stuff, so you are OK.
Complicated Ain't it.. Marketing people should be Educated Properly..............

 

[R8 Dream]

@Frans - I’ll put my hand up, as you say I bought the wrong stuff…at least it makes sense and I know what went wrong, at least there is a fix

@dauphproto - as above, I realise what’s happened. Thanks re LSD, I thought that might have been a contributing factor, but think once I have the right stuff i there I’ll be simile good again

 

[dauphproto]

The problem with anything of American origin is that if they say Heavy Duty they mean 500-600 lbs/ ft of V-8 ,Where the whole transmission screams for mercy every time the throttle is pressed.
Mind you I thought Aussies were no strangers to big V-8's themselves, just us Pom's that are used to sewing machines !

 

[potentz]

Angelo,i will stickmy neck out here and say that you wont be happy with the penrite 80/90. I used it in my r8 gearbox and the gears crunched everytime from 4th to 3rd.i was about to remove the box and tried castol vmx80.voila!!!!!.perfect gearbox!!!!
I also changed to a penrite oil in my alfa 75 racecar and broke a pinion tooth just leaving the pit lane.so no more penrite gear oils for me!!!
Just my 2 cents worth
They do however make great engine oils.

 

[R8 Dream]

I’ll check tomorrow but I think I can source the Lucas 75W140 synthetic locally, so will give that a go for the gbox First.
But agree with the engine oil,I’ve used always Penrite 10 tenths 10W60 full Synthetic and it’s great And no issues at all.

 

[R8 Dream]

Frans, time for an apology from me now. It looks like I have inadvertently high jacked your great post which profiled the exploits of your and johan’s R8 track cars.
I’ll keep a low profile on my issues on this post and if I feel so inclined I will start a new thread on any further issues I will (undoubtedly) have.