Which medium-sized 4WD would you buy ?

Honestly I would not go past a 1FZ-FE 80 series Landcruiser.
Within your budget - parts are cheap, very robust, easy to fix.
Nice to drive for a beam axle 4x4 - don't judge one until you drive one.
I know plenty with 600+kkm on them.
People can't give them away as there are so many still around so there are good ones about.
And you get Toyota quality in the deal.
Cheers,
Mark...:)
 
Yes, diesel would be better but more expensive with many more km, and tended to be workhorses rather than family wagons.
The 1fz is a tough brilliant engine, just thirsty but you may even find one on lpg....
cheers,
Mark....
 
Btw Toyota parts are not screamingly dear, it's a fallacy - they are cheaper than most, and for the 80 there are a ton of aftermarket alternatives anyway.
I've owned Toyotas for 20 years plus....
cheers
Mark....
 
With the petrol 80 series, if the motor sounds ok it will be. They are thirsty- mine averaged about 16-17 mpg over 14 years. A diesel of whatever vintage will be about twice the price of a petrol one. You have to do a lot of km to justify the higher price. Left field.... an older Pajero. 4 cyl petrol, economical for a 4wd, lighter weight and greatly underrated as a 4wd. Lots of them around cheap and available in both short and long wheel bases.
 
I don't feel so comfortable with older Pajeros, as a Peugeot mechanic I knew had one and the head gasket blew a couple of times. He did the work himself each time and he was a good mechanic. Plus, I own a 2000 Magna and am not terribly impressed with the mechanicals. Some parts of it are strong, others tinny. Like the tappet covers....cursed bloody leaky things:rolleyes:.

I'm taking on board what is being said about Landcruisers and Toyotas in general. Every mechanic knows them well, and there are certainly many in wreckers for the parts.

Er....I'm hesitant to admit this, but I'm quite hazy on the difference between "all wheel drive" and "four wheel drive".

I know 4WDs have locking hubs, but if an "all wheel drive" has drive going to all wheels, isn't that the same ? Or is one of those wheels likely to spin in the sand (and continue to do so), the same way my road vehicle will, because it doesn't have an LSD ?

Or have I just answered my own question ? :)
 
the pretend 4wds have a viscous center diff. If they haven't died they should be ok. The last of the range rover classics have the AWD with viscous center diff. They are much quieter, but die randomly. I've had two, the first one died locked up so trashed the driveline, the 2nd one died open, so your driving basically a 1 wheel drive (as it's open diffs right through). The later pajeros are good things and like the range rovers ( not the stupid viscous one) have a transfer case that will allow you to run in 4wd all the time, but lock the center diff when your in slippery conditions. Anything that is has a locked transfer case will also have the unlocking hubs on the front. You can't use these 4wds on sealed surfaces ( which sucks as far as I'm concerned. I use low range with the diff lock not engaged all the time when moving towed loads around small areas... eg: backing up caravans and trailers ... driving through caravan parks at low speeds over speed humps at low speeds etc...).

My brother has the Pajero ... with vapour injected gas .. the 3.9litre V6 ( probably just a re-cammed magna motor). It is far better than you would have any reason to expect. It also uses shitloads of fuel, especially when towing. Not a lot less than the v8 in my range rover (though probably generates considerably more power in the process).

I've never really looked at the crusier or patrols... they are far to popular, which means far to expensive and way out of my price range. To put it into perspective I payed $800 for this:

P1170967_zpsndcaudik.jpg


I put some tires on it ... changed the stupid viscous transfer case for a proper gear driven unit with a center diff lock ... and changed all the oils. It just keeps chugging along.... It's done thousands of kms dragging that block of flats all over the eastern side of australia and just keeps going. The best $800 bucks I ever spent.

To get a reliable, usable patrol or cruiser with a 4 ton tow capacity, imagine the money you would need to spend :clown:

it also gets heavily used as a 4wd ... I take my daughter to school through the bush in it everyday. Half on the trip is in low range with the diff lock in ... and take about 6minutes to get to the side of the school. Battling through traffic on the sealed roads takes 30+ minutes of sitting in fumes and stationary traffic.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
I think using the term center viscous diff is misleading.

It is a center viscous coupling. Some AWD have an electronic locking center coupling.

Most AWD suv are predominately just 2WD all the time with the other axle along for the ride unless the front wheels start spinning.

When that happens, the speed difference between front and rear axle causes the viscous fluid in the coupling to solidify and transfer some drive to the other wheels, unfortunately, that may cause the car to dig in and get bogged as it is reactive.

My wifes Hyundai ix35 has a button to lock the center coupling under a certain speed, but I have no idea how effective it is. It must allow some slip though as the car never shows any signs of bind when it's locked.

I think the general consensus amongst true 4WDers is that a true '4WD' will have a transfer case that sends equal drive to both the front and rear in Low Range. They should only be driven in Low Range 4WD on loose or slippery surfaces as the binding caused by different axle speeds front and rear when drive around corners will damage the driveline if driven on dry asphalt.

Some newer 4WD's have electronic controls that allow them to be driven in High Range 4WD all the time with an electronically controlled center diff function that only locks fully when slip is detected.
 
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Daughter's 2007 Suzuki SX4 allows you to switch from 2WD to AWD or to 4WD. It is nearing 200,000 kms and only repairs have been AC compressor and soon to be replaced radiator. Still sound.

Has not been off road but due to light weight I think it would be quite capable, especially on sand? I think it is reasonably economical in 2WD. Not much good for towing.
 
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Beano said:
I know 4WDs have locking hubs, but if an "all wheel drive" has drive going to all wheels, isn't that the same ? Or is one of those wheels likely to spin in the sand (and continue to do so), the same way my road vehicle will, because it doesn't have an LSD ?

:)
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I guess the other blokes have covered it, but my answer would be that AWD vs 4WD isn't really about the mechanisms. There are quite a few combinations of diffs, hubs, tranny cases and so forth, and they can all be on any size car. It is more that AWD is normally used for cars where the four wheel drive is for traction on the road, but 4WD is normally used for cars where the four wheel drive is for driving off road. So you don't want to pay much attention to the terms. It is more about looking at the vehicle in question.

Your typical old school 'tough as nails' 4WD usually didn't have any LSDs so can easily get stuck on all sorts of slippery surfaces. Even your patrol and landcruiser probably are'nt "real" 4WDs till they have one them at each end.

Regards,
John.
 
John Handley said:
I guess the other blokes have covered it, but my answer would be that AWD vs 4WD isn't really about the mechanisms. There are quite a few combinations of diffs, hubs, tranny cases and so forth, and they can all be on any size car. It is more that AWD is normally used for cars where the four wheel drive is for traction on the road, but 4WD is normally used for cars where the four wheel drive is for driving off road. So you don't want to pay much attention to the terms. It is more about looking at the vehicle in question.

Your typical old school 'tough as nails' 4WD usually didn't have any LSDs so can easily get stuck on all sorts of slippery surfaces. Even your patrol and landcruiser probably are'nt "real" 4WDs till they have one them at each end.

Regards,
John.
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torque biasing diffs with traction control would be a million times better than locking diffs... I could easily imagine if the factory fitted locking diffs .... the damn cars would be stuck into trees all over the place ( as people wouldn't realise you can't turn with the locking diffs ... well locked :) ).

It would be very easy to bog any 4wd just by pulling off a road and putting one wheel off each axle into mud (eg: that crazy soft grass in new zealand where you instantly sink when you pull off the road).

If I could find a pair of torque biasing diffs cheaply ... I'd chuck them straight into my POS without a seconds thought. They just work and are always there. If you lift a wheel, you would need to gently touch the brakes to get some power to bias over to the other side (but I have no intention of trashing my car by doing rock crawling, so not a big issue for me).

If your going to be making it work, I'd get a proper 4wd. My uncle reckons he trashed the transfer case in his territory by towing a trailer around his paddock (where to get to the spot he was lifting a wheel, so forcing the viscous transfer case to send 100% power to the opposite axle). A proper 4wd could do this "forever" without hurting it.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
turnbull151 said:
Daughter's 2007 Suzuki SX4 allows you to switch from 2WD to AWD or to 4WD. It is nearing 200,000 kms and only repairs have been AC compressor and soon to be replaced radiator. Still sound.

Has not been off road but due to light weight I think it would be quite capable, especially on sand? I think it is reasonably economical in 2WD. Not much good for towing.
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The SX4 has a similar system to the ix35 but they have a mode switch instead.

When in AWD mode it uses a conventional coupling that distributes drive to the rear wheels 'on demand' and in 4WD mode it just locks the center coupling.

It's basically like hitting the center lock button on most soft roader AWD's but it appears you can also completely disengage the center coupling (and hence the on demand AWD) and make it FWD only for a slight gain in fuel economy.
 
mistareno said:
The SX4 has a similar system to the ix35 but they have a mode switch instead.

When in AWD mode it uses a conventional coupling that distributes drive to the rear wheels 'on demand' and in 4WD mode it just locks the center coupling.

It's basically like hitting the center lock button on most soft roader AWD's but it appears you can also completely disengage the center coupling (and hence the on demand AWD) and make it FWD only for a slight gain in fuel economy.
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that should be a stronger way to do it than a viscous unit. cars handle and drive better with full time 4wd. I don't see the point in running in 2wd if you can run 4wd myself (especially if you are towing). How long will it be before we have a standard fwd drivetrain .... and an electric engine driving the back axle (so we don't need to worry about transfer cases at all :) ).

seeya,
Shane L.
 
Just researched fuel statistics on a few of these babies. Some of them are just terrible....one of the worst being the Holden Jackaroo. About 20 litres per 100 kilometres around town. Yikes ! Though it does go down to 12 lt/100 Ks on the highway.

I think my rule #1 will have to be : get an LPG ... dual fuel.

I don't know much about diesel cars. They're a different world to me.
 
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Beano said:
Just researched fuel statistics on a few of these babies. Some of the are just terrible....one of the worst being the Holden Jackaroo. About 20 litres per 100 kilometres around town. Yikes ! Though it does go down to 12 lt/100 Ks on the highway.

I think my rule #1 will have to be : get an LPG ... dual fuel.

I don't know much about diesel cars. They're a different world to me.
Click to expand...

what do you expect from something that weighs in at 2.5 -> 3tons and has the aerodynamics of a brick. The diesels are much better. The old V8's sound lovely though. You should have heard the FJ40 the rumbled by today when I was walking down the footpath .... It probably had a SBC fitted. There's a lot of patrols around with v8's fitted to. They don't seem to use much more fuel than the hard workings 6's (they are all appalling). My sister used to have a ford raider... Twin cab ute thing. They'd have to be cheap, it was a 4 cylinder and one of the most hideous heaps of shit I've had the misfortune to drive. A 1970 range rover is 10,000,000 times the vehicle. I'm sure you could find one of them cheaply... and it would have a ford badge :) It's probably quite ok offroad too.

the land rover nutters are pretty honest about how good there fuel economy is from a full sized 4wd...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1-a/158292-3-9-v8-fuel-economy.html

Unless you never intend to leave a capital city ... forget LPG. I'm in maryborough at the moment and the stuff is 98.9cents/L :eek: :eek: I'm sick to death of looking for the stuff too. In ballarat over the last couple of years, it has been 48.9 -> 65.9 ... hovering around 60cents a litre. I've traveled up through the victorian high country, through Eden, merimubla ... NSW sucks. I have found a lot of the larger towns have averaged around 90cents/L for LPG ... But ... I'd be driving around for bloody ages looking for the stuff. I finally asked at the place that didn't have there LPG pumps out of order (but was very expensive) what the hell was going on. He said "Oh, I speak to the ELGAS driver that delivers the gas ... he says a lot of the fuel stations throw "out of order" signs on there LPG pumps rather than put there prices up. I actually find the quite often in NSW, especially following the coast up.

averaging 30'ish L/100kms also means I'm only getting a little over 200kms per tank of LPG ... so your forever on the hunt for the stuff. If you only intend to use the car around the local area ... LPG is great, and you can access cheap LPG. Remember you use 20%'ish more LPG than petrol, so to make financial sense it needs to be approximating 1/2 the price of petrol to make the effort worth while.

Given the cost of LPG, and the fact most modern vehicles are diesel (as deisel IS better to tow with and for fuel range) ... that means less people are using LPG. Infact do you know anyone with a car built in the last 5years that has been converted? I've noticed every new petrol station being built, isn't installing LPG pumps at all. The diesel pump numbers are increasing though. The older fuel stations also need to have there big gas tanks trucked out, pressure tested and re-complienced, then re-installed. This is very expensive so a lot seem to be just remove the tanks and pumps rather than invest the big $$$ in keeping them. The future I don't think is great for lpg.

My brother has been moving big caravans a lot around town recently. He's done all the sums ... And just bought a really tidy, lowish milage F250 extra cab ute. You want to talk fuel economy ... that thing has a 460 ( 7.5 litre ) big block V8... and will tow anything. Apparently will do 200kms to an 80litre petrol tank. However, given the milage it will do, it's far cheaper than spending many multiples of the price buying a diesel. You need to do the sums and work out what will work best for you and your planned usage (but wow ... don't 460 big block V8's sound the part .... drroooollll .... ).

seeya,
Shane L.
 
I've had two Mitsubishi diesels, Delica and Pajero, well over 200k's and still chugging on. I gave the Deli to my son and the Pajero is my d/d. Both manuals with the old turbo 2.8. Average 11l/100k's in city. Or 13/100 towing a race car, so all up with spares etc well over 3 tonnes.

I like these old Mitzy 2.8l non-ecu diesels because they're simple and easy to maintain. And parts are plentiful around the wrecking yards, exactly what's needed for a low cost vehicle. They use the old Bosch type diesel pump and there's lots of info on the web about how to maintain, rebuild and modify them. Basically four adjusters and a walkie talk link to a following observer will clue you on what to adjust (see Autospeed on tuning a Peugeot diesel for how to do it) .

I also think their select/shift gearboxes offer the best selection. Can change in and out of 4wd on tar up to 100kph. Plus full lock and low range when required. The Pajero comes standard with LSD too.

EDIT 8th July 2017. Here's the link to Hillbilly's post on accessing the Autospeed diesel tuning guide.
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/peugeot-forum/85227-peugeot-405-diesel-tuning-autospeed.html
 
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DoubleChevron said:
[...]

My brother has been moving big caravans a lot around town recently. He's done all the sums ... And just bought a really tidy, lowish milage F250 extra cab ute. You want to talk fuel economy ... that thing has a 460 ( 7.5 litre ) big block V8... and will tow anything. Apparently will do 200kms to an 80litre petrol tank. However, given the milage it will do, it's far cheaper than spending many multiples of the price buying a diesel. You need to do the sums and work out what will work best for you and your planned usage (but wow ... don't 460 big block V8's sound the part .... drroooollll .... ).

seeya,
Shane L.
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...and it won't fit in any suburban normal size garage either.

The whole AWD vs 4WD is just hogwash meant to murky the waters and help marketing spin bamboozle the fool into buying the latest snake oil.

There are permanent 4WD cars just like there are all sorts of other things. What you need to realise is that a 4WD car is meant to do something (or other). Look at people who live and the bush and see what they drive. THAT is what you need if you intend to do any off road driving. Anything else is just a flashy purse.

AWD cars (of whatever flavour) have been developed from the need to drive on snow in cold countries (Japan, Sweden, etc). These are not necessarily competent off-roaders, but an attempt to capitalise (sometimes at minimum expense) on the attention paid to safety ratings.

Which are as good (or bad) as the tests. Swedes do a Moose test. Australians don't. That means a five star car in Oz might score only two in Sweden. Which one do you think is better?

The brief of the original poster is vague, but clear. Mostly city use with some occasional off road (I take it nothing fancy).

Things like sand dunes, beach, etc, are our contribution. I don't think the intended use covers these things. Otherwise, I think the original poster has some serious learning to do or would better give up now before someone gets hurt. Looks like the original poster doesn't even realise why people in the bush drive mainly (like 95%) diesels.

I think there have been quite a few suggestions. For city and "occasional" off road, I think a good two wheel drive car is enough. Inexperienced people with 4WD cars only get bogged deeper and further from the road (read help).

The small budget also doesn't help much especially coupled with lack of experience.

Like I said. Get a Subaru Liberty or similar if all you want is some sort of 4WD and forget about the rest (diff locks, transfer cases, hubs, etc). There is even a version of the Alfa 33 with a dog coupling to engage the rear if you really want to keep it interesting.

Shane, there are cars that came stock with Torsen and Quaife diffs, don't think you'll find too many of them in Oz, or not cheap anyway. Whether or not they fit the RR is another matter. Look at light(ish) trucks like the Mitsubishi Canter and similar. I don't think they would be of any use to you. Good old skool manual locking diffs is what you want for sand and stuff where you might have wheels up in the air.

PS. LPG in 4WD is for people who dropped out of school early and don't understand 3rd grade arithmetic. They bought the car for the powa or manhood compensating factors and then realised they don't have the money to fill it up. They don't understand that converting to LPG takes away some of that powa they paid for, so they pay some more to give some of it away.
 
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Beano said:
I'm posting this in the Technical Forum because it doesn't really fit in with the Toad Pond-type posts.
I need technical info.


I want to buy a 4WD. My budget is not big at all (perhaps $3,500), and I have decided to get a medium-sized one....neither big not small. In fact my budget is so small that I may have to get one with up to 200,000 Ks on it and fix it up.....at least I will then know that work has been done and new parts installed. I don't trust people selling cars as much as I used to....many Aussies seem to keep cars till they reach 200Ks and flog em off, expecting big bucks. Luckily there are also some more affluent people out there who have more realistic expectations.

I don't really know which ones have a good reputation, and am hoping people here might have some experience.

At the moment I am thinking about an old Toyota RAV4 or a Nissan X-Trail (or Pathfinder).

And I have found Mitsubishi Tributes have problems. And I'm not considering Daihatsu Terios (too small), wouldn't consider any Ford, and I think Hiluxes are too popular to get a good one.

Perhaps the best bang for my buck may be to buy a damaged one from Pickles or Mannhein auctions and fix up the panel damage ? At least then it will be relatively low Ks.

Any feedback appreciated.
Click to expand...

In the absence of any mission statement from yourself regarding why you might need this vehicle, our contributors have suggested everything from a Diahatsu Terios to a Centurion Tank. I'm sure that there's something in here that should suit you!
 
schlitzaugen said:
PS. LPG in 4WD is for people who dropped out of school early and don't understand 3rd grade arithmetic. They bought the car for the powa or manhood compensating factors and then realised they don't have the money to fill it up. They don't understand that converting to LPG takes away some of that powa they paid for, so they pay some more to give some of it away.
Click to expand...

LPG has been great for the last few decades. You certainly don't "loose" much power, especially with the modern liquid injected gas vehicles. If you look at cost per km rather than litres per km. They are often cheaper than deisels to run... There biggest issue is fuel range. You won't find gas in central australia either.

The old range rover here, it's has slightly less power running on gas.... Not so much that you would notice which fuel it is running on... and that is a simple mixer ring vapour system. Remember how bad diesels were 10+ years ago ?? That is why large capacity petrol engines on lpg were so popular.

LPG has a way higher octain rating than most fuels... Imagine how much power you'd extract from a dedicated gas falcon motor for example if you stuck a small turbo on it .... It would be staggering!

seeya,
Shane L
 
DoubleChevron said:
torque biasing diffs with traction control would be a million times better than locking diffs... I could easily imagine if the factory fitted locking diffs .... the damn cars would be stuck into trees all over the place ( as people wouldn't realise you can't turn with the locking diffs ... well locked :) ).

It would be very easy to bog any 4wd just by pulling off a road and putting one wheel off each axle into mud (eg: that crazy soft grass in new zealand where you instantly sink when you pull off the road).


seeya,
Shane L.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to start one of those overly technical debates, but I am not sure how anything is better than 3 locked diffs, at least from the point of view of traction. All those fancy electric and sensing doo-dads I think are useful, but they just seem to be making it easier to hop from high traction surfaces to low ones and back again, without having to shift levers and lock hubs etc. Not sure I see how a fully locked 4WD gets stuck because it has two wheels in the mud. Any case, the reality is that if you try hard enough you can get anything stuck, and will at some point. So nothing's infallible, and mostly it's about how you use the equipment.
 
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