A110 Engine Knowledge Needed - Swaps/Upgrades etc..

Keep in mind that by wanting more horses you will need to get rid of more heat that is generated. The rad at the back is not all that effective. I think you could get away with something extra in Europe but in many warmer places the radiator has to move to the front for air forced through the cooling system.
Frans.
 
Longlivekel said:
@Frans
Thanks. I was thinking of this and was considering an alloy radiator and an electric fan. Maybe some scoops?
Click to expand...
Kel,

Great looking A110 you have! Interesting rims too!
Re all the comments above on the subject of heat and cooling.
My R5 Alpine-engined A110 (Dinalpin) as per my previous post is still running a rear mounted radiator. Like you, I didn't want to go front mount. However it is a slightly larger and thicker aluminium rad but I still run the standard fan. Obviously I don't race the car, but I haven't had any overheating issues with it here in Perth (a warm city). Given that, I generally don't take it out in city traffic if the air temp is >32 or 33 Deg C - it fares OK except if stopped at traffic lights for a sustained period the temp can creep up a bit (to just over 90).
 
The Electric fan thing does not work Period. The mechanical fan on the car produces as much draught at tickover as an electric one does flat out. It is a full 5-7 hp Mechanical fan. Also a good copper Rad is better pound for pound than Alloy, its a better conductor.
Here in the UK the standard cooling system (all in good order) works quite happily up to 160BHP, but as @Frans points out if your climate is warmer then front rad is the order of the day.
Wheels Look like Paddy Hopkirk GT's not very common.
 
im wondering if the LOTUS motor he is refering to is a Renault motor out of a EUROPA ! could be available from guys putting a Lotus Ford twin cam in there EUROPA ,
 
dauphproto said:
The Electric fan thing does not work Period. The mechanical fan on the car produces as much draught at tickover as an electric one does flat out. It is a full 5-7 hp Mechanical fan. Also a good copper Rad is better pound for pound than Alloy, its a better conductor.
Here in the UK the standard cooling system (all in good order) works quite happily up to 160BHP, but as @Frans points out if your climate is warmer then front rad is the order of the day.
Wheels Look like Paddy Hopkirk GT's not very common.
Click to expand...
I've gone with Nauli (and partly after consulting with him). A bigger Aluminium radiator and electric fan. While pound for pound copper may be better than Ally - a big new Ally trumps a small 50yo copper. I'm not sure I could fit the radiator in with the mechanical fan so I've gone with a modest electric - mainly to look after things in traffic. If there's not enough airflow at speed, I doubt either fan type of fan will alleviate
 
You have missed the point a bit here. There IS no airflow at speed... only what the fan can generate, that's why electric fans don't work.
To make an electric fan have the same cooling potential as the original propeller has, will need about a 4-5 kw motor to drive it. Such a device does not exist at 12V.
Get the motor up to 5-6000Rpm and you realise you can hear the fan above the motor itself. This is why I always favour dropping the crank pulley size for racing to prevent overspeed when you could be as high as 7500-8000 rpm.
Around town it would work fine, get it out on the open road and up to speed and it will boil. I have seen this.
Currently an 8 that I have put the R5GTT into was working fine with a cheap ally rad and the small pulley mech fan at 130bhp (standard) It is geting an upgrade which will see it up to the 180bhp area, hopefully later this summer we will know if this works or if a line has been crossed and a front rad is the only answer.
It is also possible to get the front rad wrong, by not allowing enough mass airflow across it at speed, the air inlet hole can be quite small, but the area behind the rad has to be open to allow the air to get away.
It is always more helpful not to think of Air as Air, but to think of it as water, a car is like a stone in the river it creates a bulge around it with a dead spot in front of it and turbulence behind. Then you can write 10 phone books worth of what you can do about it.
 
I wouldn't discount the 807 Renault engine yet. If power is the ultimate goal, the 807 is easily built with off the shelf parts to produce a reliable 160HP in its 12G spec. Nothing to reinvent here. This will translate in a lot of money being saved for other things like a bespoke g'box, which will be absolutely necessary to make use of that power. When I rebuilt my 807 (many years ago) all the parts were supplied by Mecaparts and they didn't cost more than 2000AU$.

The only tricky bit I see is finding a good block to start with because these suffered from corrosion. I went through a number of them (the original was so bad, it was only good to throw away). Luckily, when I finally gave up buying s/h engines to cannibalise the block and decommissioned my daily driver (a scabby R17TL) I found its block was absolutely pristine inside so I used that. Talk about finding something in the last place you look!

And this is true not only of the 807 blocks or Renault. I have other french cars and the blocks are always a problem with internal corrosion, so keep that in mind if embarking down the road of alloy blocks.

But if that hurdle is successfully negotiated, I think the 807 is a great candidate with vast possibilities, simple and cheap mechanicals (in relative terms) for the power potential it offers with not much effort.

It does of course leave the question of cooling open, but if keeping the radiotor at the back is a must, I would look into a bespoke copper item like Steve said. It may be more expensive upfront than an alloy off the shelf item but it will outperform it in the long run (and is repairable too, hence no replacement cost).
 
On behalf of SZ above, Yes. With the rad in front, you will have peace of mind and not drive with your eyes constantly on the heat gauge. The temperature will have to be managed constantly by you.

I have overcome the corrosion on the 807 blocks, provided that they are not too bad. I have used 2-pack epoxy on 2 807 blocks successfully by grinding the corrosion out with a small rotary file so that the corroded hollows become like a pool where the epoxy can lie in and can't come out. See the attached photos.

IMG_0106.JPG


Above you can see the corrosion before I ground it deeper and in a pool shape.

IMG_0116.JPG


Filled with epoxy, ready to be smoothed. The sleeve will push down on it and it only needs to stop 80 degrees water at no more than 15 psi.

IMG_0125.JPG


More corrosion higher up.

IMG_0126.JPG


I stuck Duct tape to prevent the epoxy sliding down.

IMG_0137.JPG


Final product.

While I am on the computer here are some photos of a standard 330 box that shows the weak point when you increase the HP.

IMG_0079.JPG


IMG_0081.JPG
 
What Frans says is true, I have redeemed a 807 block for a street competition motor for Shoji's R17. And it has worked very well. I had done one many years before, in ZA, for my Off-Road race single seater and had 3 seasons use with no problems.

Ray
 
  • Like
Reactions: COL
dauphproto said:
You have missed the point a bit here. There IS no airflow at speed... only what the fan can generate, that's why electric fans don't work.
To make an electric fan have the same cooling potential as the original propeller has, will need about a 4-5 kw motor to drive it. Such a device does not exist at 12V.
Get the motor up to 5-6000Rpm and you realise you can hear the fan above the motor itself. This is why I always favour dropping the crank pulley size for racing to prevent overspeed when you could be as high as 7500-8000 rpm.
Around town it would work fine, get it out on the open road and up to speed and it will boil. I have seen this.
Currently an 8 that I have put the R5GTT into was working fine with a cheap ally rad and the small pulley mech fan at 130bhp (standard) It is geting an upgrade which will see it up to the 180bhp area, hopefully later this summer we will know if this works or if a line has been crossed and a front rad is the only answer.
It is also possible to get the front rad wrong, by not allowing enough mass airflow across it at speed, the air inlet hole can be quite small, but the area behind the rad has to be open to allow the air to get away.
It is always more helpful not to think of Air as Air, but to think of it as water, a car is like a stone in the river it creates a bulge around it with a dead spot in front of it and turbulence behind. Then you can write 10 phone books worth of what you can do about it.
Click to expand...
Standard airflow stuff, I agree. Look at the narrow slots for air intakes on aircraft, or Vanwall GP cars, which were designed by an aerodynamicist. The key thing is getting the air OUT not in. Mr 4cvg, who posts here, has an excellent shrouding system behind the front mounted radiator in his 4CV and a modest air intake area. Works well he reports.

On my standard R8, with an 80 degree thermostat, it runs around 80 degrees until the air temp exceeds 35. If it is over 40 degrees the coolant temp rises to 90 degrees or a bit more. I have the later 6-blade fan and a 'three row of tubes' radiator, which is the later system used on R10s in Australia.

I'd never thought of the smaller pulley for racing, but then I don't race! Thanks for that information.

Air is compressible mind you, whereas water is not. As a hydrogeologist, I know that the resistance to fluid flow between parallel plates (think of joints in a rock mass) is proportional to the third power of the plate spacing. This means that if you double the spacing you get 8 times the fluid flow for a given pressure differential. So nice big ducting behind a radiator can shift lots of air away from it without too much pressure differential. I doubt that intake scoops are worth a cracker if the air can't get OUT or if the fan-driven airflow through the radiator isn't enough.
 
Last edited:
dauphproto said:
You have missed the point a bit here. There IS no airflow at speed... only what the fan can generate, that's why electric fans don't work.
To make an electric fan have the same cooling potential as the original propeller has, will need about a 4-5 kw motor to drive it. Such a device does not exist at 12V.
Get the motor up to 5-6000Rpm and you realise you can hear the fan above the motor itself. This is why I always favour dropping the crank pulley size for racing to prevent overspeed when you could be as high as 7500-8000 rpm.
Around town it would work fine, get it out on the open road and up to speed and it will boil. I have seen this.
Currently an 8 that I have put the R5GTT into was working fine with a cheap ally rad and the small pulley mech fan at 130bhp (standard) It is geting an upgrade which will see it up to the 180bhp area, hopefully later this summer we will know if this works or if a line has been crossed and a front rad is the only answer.
It is also possible to get the front rad wrong, by not allowing enough mass airflow across it at speed, the air inlet hole can be quite small, but the area behind the rad has to be open to allow the air to get away.
It is always more helpful not to think of Air as Air, but to think of it as water, a car is like a stone in the river it creates a bulge around it with a dead spot in front of it and turbulence behind. Then you can write 10 phone books worth of what you can do about it.
Click to expand...
180 bhp? Wow.
 
So, Trying to summarise what can be done. Original type Engines fall into 2 categories the iron Block 13/1400 series or the Alloy block 1600 series both were fitted to the Alpine from the factory, so will not damage the cars value.
The third option would be to fit the Clio/ Megane 1600 engine, which does fit to the original gearbox and someone on here is doing just that to an R8, but you need to figure out the rest. The fourth option would be to do your own thing and fit whatever you like, but you are on your own with connecting it all up.
Gearboxes, a bit more limited here, not all gloom though, I am sure your car should have a 3.9 final drive, which is as good as it gets without major surgery. You could build up a 4 speed big box using R16 bits fitted inside the std case, this has a much stronger Diff, but is usually done to change the 4.1(R8) final drive to 3.7 (R16) to improve cruising. This would not really be worth the effort in your case. Last you can source a 5 speed or build a hybrid, you need to beware of the original 5 speeds that are out there, as they all use the weaker differential (except the 364/Monte, it's Renault there's always an exception) Many are ex R8G fitting this will give your car much worse cruising ability than it currently has, using the 1600s Alp box is the other extreme as it has a long Diff 3.3 and needs a bit of Torque to work and still has the weak Diff. Building a 5 speed gives a bit of the best of both worlds, but finding the parts is not easy these days. If you can find and get the bits to me, I can build it, but I'm just a retired Guy messing about in my shed.
If you go to https://turborenault.co.uk/ you will find my current workshop thread https://turborenault.co.uk/threads/how-not-to-make-your-dauphine-handle.177834/
There you will also find my old website which has Dave Wheeler's excellent Gearboxes history article which you should read at https://turborenault.co.uk/threads/technical-section.43978/ Go about 2/3 way down and you will find it.
There is also the R8 Turbo thread which shows a lot of what can be done generally https://turborenault.co.uk/threads/renault-8-gtt.177494/
Basically anything that can be Done with an R8 can be Done to an Alpine, it's just an 8 in a party Frock, with less elbow room.........
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top