Virage fuel pump alternatives

C

chodaboy

Member
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Messages
280
Location
Clonbinane, Victoria, Australia
Hi all,

As I ready myself for yet another starter motor rebuild, I'm wondering if there's a better way.

My car has always been difficult to start when not run for any length of time. As far as I can tell, it's starved of fuel - it takes a lot of pedal pumping before there's any attempt to catch, and as soon as the fuel hits, away it goes. The car starts straight away if started later that day, but it becomes progressively harder over time and given that I don't drive it everyday, I burn through batteries and starters rather quickly.

I imagine the mechanical fuel pump has an anti-drain feature but if it does, it's not working. I'm curious if there's an electric or electronic alternative if anyone has tried it before?
 
You could put a facet electric pump. easy to fit, will work with original type fuel pickup in tank, and low enough pressure for your carburettor (around 3-4psi from memory) only thing, I find them a little noisy.
If putting gone of those in you'd really be best to install a tachometric relay as well so it stops if the engine cuts out. Just a safety feature and very easy to wire in.
Oh, and you know you can get starter motors new for those? Not too bad in cost either.
 
I am assuming you have your battery on a float charger.
How often driven?
Weekly/fortnightly/monthly?
The amount of amp hours drawn from battery starting is probably not being refreshed with driving, leading to dead batteries.
Put non-return valve on fuel inlet line, should minimise fuel evaporation.
Use start-ya-bastard?
 
Modern fuel evaporates out of the carby fuel bowl to dead empty in about 9 days.

A couple of squirts of "Start Ya Bastard" or a similar product will ease the starting problem, as of course will an electric pump. But you will need to let the electric pump run for a short time to fill the bowl again. Not sure why the starter motor won't cope. I have two cars with those motors/carbs and never drive them often. The starters have never been a problem filling the fuel bowl before the motor starts. There has to be some other reason for starter problems such as low volts or a current restriction at the starter itself due to dirty contacts or faulty cable, etc. There is definately something else causing the starters to burn out it is not the running time to fill a fuel bowl. Althought don't just churn away without giving the starter a few short breaks.

A mechanical pump already has a non return valve thats how it operates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: COL
i have an electric pump i have been putting off installing ,its from a Subaru Brumby from memory ,pugs ,PS the cars more or less a daily now
 
G'day,
the electric impulse pump will cure many problems, including the silly original pressure regulation on lots of old Renault systems - does yours have the tiny bleed off line back to the fuel tank ?
On my old R20, it achieved better economy, better performance and easier starting... :headbanger"
cheers,
Bob
 
I remember back many years ago having two different problems, one with woven earth straps, the other with a brand new earth cable. Both caused starting problems. They were high resistance when subjected to a high current load. Another probably unrelated earth problem was the earth wire from the alternator to the regulator on a 17 going dry joint in the terminal. Didn't cause starter problems but did cause starting problems. If an electric motor is under stress due to too low current supply or voltage, apart from slow turning, it may over heat and then burn out.
 
angru said:
You could put a facet electric pump. easy to fit, will work with original type fuel pickup in tank, and low enough pressure for your carburettor (around 3-4psi from memory) only thing, I find them a little noisy.
If putting gone of those in you'd really be best to install a tachometric relay as well so it stops if the engine cuts out. Just a safety feature and very easy to wire in.
Oh, and you know you can get starter motors new for those? Not too bad in cost either.
Click to expand...
I don't mean to high jack this thread, but i run an electric fuel pump with my R8 and am interested to know more about the 'tachometric relay' you mention above. When I have the car at ignition position, it starts pumping, and of course keeps going when the car starts. When i turn the car off, of course it switches off.
So how can I test the system to see whether or not I have a tachometric relay already fitted (noting that the car was completely custom rewired - a task I did not do myself).
I suppose you are talking about a stall situation? This I imagine can be achieved by running the engine when stationary, depressing the clutch, putting it in 4th, have the handbrake on and lifting the clutch pedal - and stalling the car with the ignition still in the on position.
If I can hear the pump buzzing still, then clearly I don't have this relay in place?
Are they easy to fit, or best left to an auto electrician?
Angelo
 
R8 Dream said:
I don't mean to high jack this thread, but i run an electric fuel pump with my R8 and am interested to know more about the 'tachometric relay' you mention above. When I have the car at ignition position, it starts pumping, and of course keeps going when the car starts. When i turn the car off, of course it switches off.
So how can I test the system to see whether or not I have a tachometric relay already fitted (noting that the car was completely custom rewired - a task I did not do myself).
I suppose you are talking about a stall situation? This I imagine can be achieved by running the engine when stationary, depressing the clutch, putting it in 4th, have the handbrake on and lifting the clutch pedal - and stalling the car with the ignition still in the on position.
If I can hear the pump buzzing still, then clearly I don't have this relay in place?
Are they easy to fit, or best left to an auto electrician?
Angelo
Click to expand...


Just purchase an LPG cut off relay.

Any lpg fitter should have one.
 
I checked the link above and I don't think that relay is what Angru is recommending . He said, "If putting one of those in you'd really be best to install a tachometric relay as well so it stops if the engine cuts out".
The point being that the ignition is on but the pump stops when the engine stalls. Could make it hard to restart though ? There is more to Angru's suggestion than a simple power relay.
There is a Ford inertia switch part#4W7Z-9341-AA which shuts off power when a certain G-force is exceeded, such as a crash. Tried briefly in racing but the G-force is sometimes exceeded and shuts everything down when you don't want it to, bouncing off kerbs or glancing walls can trigger it. Easy to reset though, just push the red button and away we go again.
 
Last edited:
chodaboy said:
Hi all,

As I ready myself for yet another starter motor rebuild, I'm wondering if there's a better way.

My car has always been difficult to start when not run for any length of time. As far as I can tell, it's starved of fuel - it takes a lot of pedal pumping before there's any attempt to catch, and as soon as the fuel hits, away it goes. The car starts straight away if started later that day, but it becomes progressively harder over time and given that I don't drive it everyday, I burn through batteries and starters rather quickly.

I imagine the mechanical fuel pump has an anti-drain feature but if it does, it's not working. I'm curious if there's an electric or electronic alternative if anyone has tried it before?
Click to expand...
Pedal pumping does nothing if the carby bowl is empty. It's just a squirt device for acceleration. I have fuel pumps "avec levier" for my RERs - I don't know whether you can buy such a pump for a Virage. I'd endorse all the electric fuel pump suggestions. I've used them before and had one on our Citroen CX. Why would you use a starter motor to pump fuel after all? Turn on the ignition, listen, and start the car after the pump stops clicking.

Of course it helps if all the electrical stuff is set up properly - most carburettor problems are electrical after all. :)
 
Yeah. If you stall it and the pump still runs for longer than3 seconds you don’t have one. You really should though. Not difficult to fit. Need to wire I into the tacho wire, starter wire, and fuel pump supply wire. Probably on yours could put it up on the parcel shelf where the ignition module is. And would have access to most wires you’d need.
Those lpg ones, seem to be very reliable and cheaper than the old European style ones as used in ‘80’s French cars.

R8 Dream said:
I don't mean to high jack this thread, but i run an electric fuel pump with my R8 and am interested to know more about the 'tachometric relay' you mention above. When I have the car at ignition position, it starts pumping, and of course keeps going when the car starts. When i turn the car off, of course it switches off.
So how can I test the system to see whether or not I have a tachometric relay already fitted (noting that the car was completely custom rewired - a task I did not do myself).
I suppose you are talking about a stall situation? This I imagine can be achieved by running the engine when stationary, depressing the clutch, putting it in 4th, have the handbrake on and lifting the clutch pedal - and stalling the car with the ignition still in the on position.
If I can hear the pump buzzing still, then clearly I don't have this relay in place?
Are they easy to fit, or best left to an auto electrician?
Angelo
Click to expand...
 
angru said:
Yeah. If you stall it and the pump still runs for longer than3 seconds you don’t have one. You really should though. Not difficult to fit. Need to wire I into the tacho wire, starter wire, and fuel pump supply wire. Probably on yours could put it up on the parcel shelf where the ignition module is. And would have access to most wires you’d need.
Those lpg ones, seem to be very reliable and cheaper than the old European style ones as used in ‘80’s French cars.
Click to expand...
Most certainly a small job for you after the Pandemic is over and before I head back to the track 😉
 
Those lpg fuel cut relays are actually tachometeric. They have a sense wire from the ignition system.
As for an inertia switch, yeah ideally on a road car you’d have an inertia switch wired in series with the tachometeric. I fitted an aftermarket pump to an older car that needed engineering a couple of months back and was surprised the engineer only wanted one or the other, I fitted both to be safe. Track car, probably isn’t always practical or necessary to fit an inertia switch though.

Bustamif said:
I checked the link above and I don't think that relay is what Angru is recommending . He said, "If putting one of those in you'd really be best to install a tachometric relay as well so it stops if the engine cuts out".
The point being that the ignition is on but the pump stops when the engine stalls. Could make it hard to restart though ? There is more to Angru's suggestion than a simple power relay.
There is a Ford inertia switch part#4W7Z-9341-AA which shuts off power when a certain G-force is exceeded, such as a crash. Tried briefly in racing but the G-force is sometimes exceeded and shuts everything down when you don't want it to, bouncing off kerbs or glancing walls can trigger it. Easy to reset though, just push the red button and away we go again.
Click to expand...
 
The previous owner of my R12 has fitted an electric pump that is plumbed in parallel with the mechanical pump so it can be used to prime the carby before engine starting. He did this to overcome the same problem of the evaporation of fuel out of the bowl over time especially in hot climates. It is controlled by an separate switch which is also connected to the turn indicator lamp in the dashboard. When you go to start the car after it hasn't been used for a while. You simply operate the switch to prime the carby until the pump stops clicking. Turn the pump off and start the car as normal. If you forget to switch the electric pump off the flashing indicator light reminds you. You then operate on the mechanical pump.
I'm not suggesting this is a better solution, just a different approach.
Cheers
Rod
 
Renault Rod said:
The previous owner of my R12 has fitted an electric pump that is plumbed in parallel with the mechanical pump so it can be used to prime the carby before engine starting. He did this to overcome the same problem of the evaporation of fuel out of the bowl over time especially in hot climates. It is controlled by an separate switch which is also connected to the turn indicator lamp in the dashboard. When you go to start the car after it hasn't been used for a while. You simply operate the switch to prime the carby until the pump stops clicking. Turn the pump off and start the car as normal. If you forget to switch the electric pump off the flashing indicator light reminds you. You then operate on the mechanical pump.
I'm not suggesting this is a better solution, just a different approach.
Cheers
Rod
Click to expand...
Beats using the starter motor as a fuel pump! Neat. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: COL
but loses the excellent pressure regulation of the impulse pump....

Bob
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top