using a modern voltage regulator in the DS

[robmac]

Rob,
I'd love to assist, but I no longer have a regulator. Actually have never had one.
The Bosch RE55 regulator was sent to the USA to Hotrodelectric when he made a loom for a New Zealand owner who needed help.

My alternator is of the internally regulated type, but with a traditonal look. I did this a couple of years ago. Think 60s Chev with a twist of Motorola/Prestolite. A friend in the USA started me off, he owns a milling machine and I don't.
There are two ( slightly ) different brackets used on the Ds with alternators and another from the earlier generator type, however the fixing method and shapes are simila and interchangable.

OK so let's ask Corne.

Corne are you there?...... (shouting)

Please get a multimeter, set to ohms on x 1k or 2k range.

Put one probe on the R (yes, I made a slip in the earlier post) terminal and other the case earth of the disconnected regulator.

Tell me the reading.

After you do that I will post a drawing of how to use a conventional 2 wire universal regulator and a separate relay to replace the DS regulator and maintain full functionality.

The relay coil resistance is probably not at all critical, but from experience, I like to collect data before proposing a fix or mod.

EDIT: I have added images of possible substitute alternators if you want to go that path.
Richo cast your trained eye over them and pass comment.

 

[richo]

Hi Rob,
The Sprinter one looks okay. Case design is interesting, styling wise certainly an 80s thing.
ND make good product, no denying that.

 

[robmac]

Hi Rob,
The Sprinter one looks okay. Case design is interesting, styling wise certainly an 80s thing.
ND make good product, no denying that.

The Sprinter uses a compact claw type alternator. The advantage of CCAs are that deliver up to 50% of the maximum output at around 1500 alternator rpm ( typically 750 engine rpm)

A conventional claw pole alternator will only deliver around 15-20% of maximum output at the same revs.

The CCAs are a far more "modern" looking product.

 

[Roger Wilkinson]

BOB is short for Bobine, which is French for winding.

Roger

 

[Le Parisian]

DS Alternator

Hi Corne
Attached is a DS electrical diagram in which you should be able to trace the Alternator and regulator inconnections
Cheers

 

[robmac]

BOB is short for Bobine, which is French for winding.

Roger

The literal translation is "coil". In this case it connected ignition switched 12v+ to provide the initial excitation (magnetising) current for the alternator rotor winding/coil.

Once the rotor is magnetised, the voltage coil on the voltage regulator "modulates" the contacts and thus maintains a constant voltage.

All of these functions are performed more accurately and more reliably with a few transistors in a modern electronic regulator.

 

[CorneSoutAfrica]

OK so let's ask Corne.

Corne are you there?...... (shouting)

Please get a multimeter, set to ohms on x 1k or 2k range.

Put one probe on the R (yes, I made a slip in the earlier post) terminal and other the case earth of the disconnected regulator.

Tell me the reading.

After you do that I will post a drawing of how to use a conventional 2 wire universal regulator and a separate relay to replace the DS regulator and maintain full functionality.

The relay coil resistance is probably not at all critical, but from experience, I like to collect data before proposing a fix or mod.

EDIT: I have added images of possible substitute alternators if you want to go that path.
Richo cast your trained eye over them and pass comment.

Hi Rob yes now I am here haha

Unfortunately my dad borrowed my low ohm reader so the one I have can only go down to 20K ohm, my reading was 0.04ohm across the "R" terminal to the casing/earth

Thanks for the link to the alternators, so they will be working correctly even though they will be turning the opposite direction?

I unfortunately will have to upgrade the alternator but not for a while so I am keeping my eyes open for alternators.(going to take the electronic aircon route thinking of a 150amp? alternator)

Thanks Rob

Roger, you are right, I don't know why it stuck in my head citroflu or DScow disease

Le parisian, thanks for the drawing

Cheers
Corne

 

[Amopallas]

Funny that because the Italian word for "coil" as in the electrical coil in cars is BOBBINA . I suppose it's their way of describing the windings in the coil. Seriously though,the situation that Corne is in makes me wonder of what the many DS owners in Europe use to overcome the problem of finding a modern voltage regulator suitable for DS cars,or even as others have suggested to replace the entire alternator/regulator with a suitable modern unit. I know on my DS,the P.O. had fitted a Bosch regulator off a Holden,but problem was the charge warning light was always on. I managed to find a proper Ducellier unit that worked,making me wonder how long it will continue to work,and then what will be it's replacement when it stops working ?

 

[CorneSoutAfrica]

I checked on the internet for a direct swop replacement from a bunch of DS suppliers and not one of them had a modern replacement, just overhauled duccelier voltage regulators or a total system change.

The ford voltage regulator modified into the duccelier casing seems to be the only conversion to keep the orinigal look. but there must be a direct swop replacement somewhere? I can't think that everyone either uses the orinigal unit/overhauled or a total different system??

Oh well now we can maby build a unit that can be easily built by everyone and is a direct swop after minor/no mods and we can supply everyone in need with a very easy DIY fix and it looks 100% orinigal.

I just need to collect the Bosch unit I ordered, it could be a small mod fix. Looks like I will have a few different modificated units for my 4 DS's by the time I finished this change then all of them ,well tested, could show the best one:joker:

Cheers
Corne

 

[robmac]

Hi Rob yes now I am here haha

Unfortunately my dad borrowed my low ohm reader so the one I have can only go down to 20K ohm, my reading was 0.04ohm across the "R" terminal to the casing/earth

Thanks for the link to the alternators, so they will be working correctly even though they will be turning the opposite direction?

I unfortunately will have to upgrade the alternator but not for a while so I am keeping my eyes open for alternators.(going to take the electronic aircon route thinking of a 150amp? alternator)

Thanks Rob

Roger, you are right, I don't know why it stuck in my head citroflu or DScow disease

Le parisian, thanks for the drawing

Cheers
Corne

Alternator are bidirectional in function. The cooling fans are not.

Factor that in the direction when you harvest the used alternator.

Forget electric aircon in my opinion. By the time you uprate the alternator and the drive belt system, you might as well fit a small compressor.

I'll take the resistance of the relay coil in the regulator as 400 ohms odd.

 

[richo]

Alternator are bidirectional in function. The cooling fans are not.

Factor that in the direction when you harvest the used alternator.

Forget electric aircon in my opinion. By the time you uprate the alternator and the drive belt system, you might as well fit a small compressor.

I'll take the resistance of the relay coil in the regulator as 400 ohms odd.

Brain ticking...
100amp without modifications to original bracket, using same fan as original, or one as supplied.
That's doable.
Drive belt modification not necessary, already runs two "10" section belts on short run.

Electric aircond prevents camshaft shock from compressor load cut in and cut out.

Would 100amp be sufficient? Are these electric aircond units compact?
Please show a picture or provide a link to what is available here in Oz.

 

[robmac]

Brain ticking...
100amp without modifications to original bracket, using same fan as original, or one as supplied.
That's doable.
Drive belt modification not necessary, already runs two "10" section belts on short run.

Electric aircond prevents camshaft shock from compressor load cut in and cut out.

Would 100amp be sufficient? Are these electric aircond units compact?
Please show a picture or provide a link to what is available here in Oz.

It's been discussed here http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87424&highlight=elan

You need some reserve in the alternator capacity to cover other electrical load so a 120amp alternator is more in order to cover headlights etc.

Also remember you won't get the full output at idle , when the aircon is needed most.

A D is very badly insulated vehicle with a lot of glass and high heat gain,so a small electric compressor won't cope in OZ conditions.

The electric compressor are a hermetic compressor with DC motor and complex drive system and that comes at price and reliability trade- off.

DC compressor are viable on Hybrid car because the have an electrical supply of around 70-110v available which means the current around 1/6 to 1/8 of what it will be a 12volts.

Since you have a double sheave drive available I believe a compressor still the way to go.

 

[richo]

Insulation can be improved.
Even with a '70s Auto Clima on a hot ( 30°C+ ) day in Tassie, aircond is effective. I've experienced this first hand.
A 1970 DS21 with aircond outlets on the floor and the old monster York compressor I've driven was also passable on a hot day.
I accept the voltage requirement of the hybrid type versions.
The shock of the cut in and cut out though is a tax on the camshaft pulley. That little woodruff key and the riveted pulley sheaves take quite a hammering.

Anyway, back to the topic, don't want to steal this from Corne.

 

[robmac]

Insulation can be improved.
Even with a '70s Auto Clima on a hot ( 30°C+ ) day in Tassie, aircond is effective. I've experienced this first hand.
A 1970 DS21 with aircond outlets on the floor and the old monster York compressor I've driven was also passable on a hot day.
I accept the voltage requirement of the hybrid type versions.
The shock of the cut in and cut out though is a tax on the camshaft pulley. That little woodruff key and the riveted pulley sheaves take quite a hammering.

Anyway, back to the topic, don't want to steal this from Corne.

Stick with the Autoclima they are a great evaporator. Get rid of the reciprocating York and fit one the modern Sanden swash plate rotaries with a "shock absorber" on the clutch.

You need:

http://speedyairspares.com.au/products/GENUINE_SANDEN_SD7H15_12V-4-5.html

http://speedyairspares.com.au/produ...iversal_Compressor_Mounting_bracket-20-9.html

Parts about $500, new fittings on the lines, new receiver dryer, a couple on new belts, plus a recharge with Hycill around $350 and you get out of the whole job for under $1000 even with contingencys.

Less than the 2/3 the cost of an electric compressor and probably better performance.

The modern rotaries are very efficient and much kinder on the drive system than the older compressors.

Sorry Corne.

 

[CorneSoutAfrica]

Hi

No by all means I like opinions, the people who are doing it are all too worried about the chain and they are in the AC business so the parts are much cheaper than trade. I thought about the rotary pumps too but first thing I always hear "ooo rotary pumps are far too expensive" so I just shut up and carry on. they are still experimenting and maby they'll decide on the rotary pump afterall. Not high on my worry list for now the voltage regulator and bloody BVH more important. After this I'd maby invest in a rotary pump system. My only with is to fit the Evaporator? into the orinigal air boxes with high output fans, I just don't like this huge hump of plastic on the firewall, it looks aweful.

Ok Rob then it is 400 odd ohms
Back to the garage now and further tinkering with the EFI..


Cheers
Corne

 

[robmac]

Hi

No by all means I like opinions, the people who are doing it are all too worried about the chain and they are in the AC business so the parts are much cheaper than trade. I thought about the rotary pumps too but first thing I always hear "ooo rotary pumps are far too expensive" so I just shut up and carry on. they are still experimenting and maby they'll decide on the rotary pump afterall. Not high on my worry list for now the voltage regulator and bloody BVH more important. After this I'd maby invest in a rotary pump system. My only with is to fit the Evaporator? into the orinigal air boxes with high output fans, I just don't like this huge hump of plastic on the firewall, it looks aweful.

Ok Rob then it is 400 odd ohms
Back to the garage now and further tinkering with the EFI..


Cheers
Corne

Circuit attached. My first foray in schematic packages. It's pretty rough.

 

[CorneSoutAfrica]

Thanks Rob!!:banana:

It looks simple enough, have the voltage regulator with 2 wires and I'll get the other units tomorrow and if it's not in town I'll get it from radioshack in Johannesburg

Cheers
Corne

 

[Ken W]

Rob,

Just had a look at your diagram. It look like you got the anti-spike diode on RL1 around the wrong way. Also what value is VR1 and how do you set it?

Cheers, Ken