Unleaded Petrol

You'd have to wonder whether we are all getting our ttttttsss pulled with this lead bit. How come someone hasn't come up with a LEAD plug you drop in the tank the same as hot water systems have sacrificial anodes to prevent electrolysis?
Is it really all that silly when you think about it.
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Alan S
 
Dave,

I'm pretty sure (although not certain) that this product has been tested by an independent body, like the one that tested the additives. They are keen to find solutions - you know how many old ('classic' as they like to call them, a word I hate)cars are kept running in the UK. I'm not sure what form the tin takes - I believe it's pellets or mesh.

Hmmmmm...might whack a roll of solder in the tank today - surely you can't go wrong with lead AND tin
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Stuey
 
Stuey,

As I said, just putting it in the tank probably won't give you the required wear rate on the tin or lead, to be beneficial. You really need something that sits in a canister, which goes in line with the fuel line, and is bolted to your engine block, so that the bits of tin or lead vibrate and rub together, and wear alot of particles off, which are then carried into the engine and deposited on the exhaust valves.

I don't advise anyone to stick anything in their fuel tanks other than fuel (and possibly liquid additives like octane booster, etc).

Regards,
Dave
 
Alan,

I don't think lead has the required difference in electronegativity, between it and steel, to be able to work as a sacrificial anode.

Dave
 
David, yeah, leaded basically never left the UK. A firm called Bayford Thrust committed themselves to reintroduce leaded through their stations, and the number has increased to cover most of the UK. Magazine 'Classic and Sportscar' lists them in most editions.

Stuey
 
What a load of crap,
That site makes me so angry, talk about pollitical bull dust, ask any Doctor, Chemist, Engineer, basically anyone with the power to think for themselves. Lead is NOT the problem, it was NOT but into fuel for profit but simply so we could run higher compressioned engines, lead is NOT dangerous as you can't breath it in from car exhausts (its heavier than air). Lets talk about the dangers of UNLEADED, truth is unleaded fuel WILL kill more people than Hitler, has anyone noticed the incease of cancer in the last 15 years, it aint rocket science, look at whats in unleaded.
My father, a retired engineer with over 50 years experience has been putting together some articles about the truth about fuels and I tell you, if you knew the truth you would be to scared to breath, his first article will be published in the next RCCV club magazine and will probably be sent to other clubs from there, anyone wanting a copy could email me, but beleive me its scary.

Seeya's
David.
 
David, Jamie Kitman (the author) is just a motoring journalist (for the UK 'Car' mag, amongst others) who investigated this issue over a couple of years. I don't believe he has any political leanings. IN fact, he runs exclusively old Brit. cars and is laughed at in NY where he lives - a Series 1 Land Rover, old Rovers, etc. etc.

I didn't read the whole report (a condensed version was in 'Car'), but from what I gather, the lead problem isn't from breathing it, but from the lead salts formed entering the environment and hence the food chain.

BUT I know about your concerns, that unleaded is actually worse, containing benzene etc.

I think Kitman is saying that neither needed to happen - leaded OR the current formula for unleaded - and that there are safer alternatives, eg. alcohols, to increase octane. I just cringe when I think that for seven years in the seventies my family owned a servo/roadhouse, and my hands were in petrol, cleaning carbies etc. every spare moment. Reckon I'd have a fair old lead count in my system...err...what was your name again, squire?

Cheers

Stuey
 
David,

Your spot on. When I did chemstry in high school, one thing we learnt was that Benzine is highly carcinogenic and to stay away from it at all costs. Then I found out some years later that unlead has a high Benzine content, and that during engine warm-up, the catalytic converter is too cold to catalize the burning or any extra Benzine (resulting from enriched start up mixtures), so that it comes out the tail pipe in its dangerous unburnt form. Also many cars over a few years old have ineffective catalytic converters, so Benzine is more likely to make it into the atmosphere.

I'd rather have my I.Q. lowered by a few points, from lead poisoning, than be dead from Benzine poisoning.

Dave
 
Dave,
your right there, better to be dumb than dead.
One thing thow, all the theories about leaded fuel and brain cells are just that, theories, none of them have been proved, but all the test done on unleaded prove beyond a shaddow of doubt, the human race is in trouble.
Stuey, my father has a copy of the report that article is based on, its basically the same argument that was presented to the goverment 20 years ago by the greenies, it has so many false claims and misgided statements its no wonder the pollies fell for it.
My Father and the group of chemists he is working with are all retired and go back 80 years in knowledge and experience, they knew about the dangers of asbestos 40 years before anyone did anything. Now the situation today is if a class room contains asbestos than the kids are baned from using it, but there mothers all drive them to school on unleaded fuel with a cold cat, which is a much more deadly combination than asbestos.
Anyway sorry to crap on but I think this is the most important subject on the planet at the moment.
Seeya,
David.
 
David,

I wonder if the recent increasing infertility rates in developed countries, have anything to do with benzene levels. Those in the know say the developed world is heading for a population collapse, and depression (due to less taxpayers than pensioners). Even in developing countries the level of population growth has dramatically dropped in recent years, so that fears of global over-population are now pretty much unfounded.

Basically capitalism can not function without economic growth, and you can't have sustainable economic growth without population growth.

If we solve the infertility problem and we colonize the rest of the solar system (and eventually beyond) then capitalism is perfectly sustainable for eternity (because the universe is for all intents and purposes infinite in size and resources). If we remain on one planet (which requires zero or negative population growth) then depression is our future, because humans are hopeless at implementing any economic systems other than capitalism. Some people propose that we all return to a hunter and gatherer society (with minimal technology and infrastructure), but only a very small percentage of people would ever be willing to do that, so it's not a realistic solution to our problems.

At the moment, there are only a small number of people who realise that shrinking population is the greatest danger facing the human race. Hopefully people will wake up before it's too late.

Dave
 
Hey guys,
Octane is a measure of how much pressure and temperature fuel can take before it fires. Therefore, the more octane the higher pressure and temperature the fuel will need to fire. Unlike the popular believe, that high octane petrol would be kinder to your engine, you must be careful when choosing certain octane for you engine.
The correct octane depends on your compression ratio, the higher the compression ratio the higher the octane that must be used. The best thing to do is to ride with the lowest octane that alouds your engine to run well. For instance, If you run with 91 octane with no problem and then decide to pump 95 to increase performance, the only thing you will be doing is to decrease your engine life and increase your fuel consumption rate because the petrol won't burn as well, since you don't have the right temperature and pressure needed. This will form residues of resins inside your engine and burn your valves prematurely.
On the other hand, If you pump a lower octane than you are suppose to, then you will get knuckling that will damage your engine because the petrol would fire before It is supposed to. The Knuckling comes from the metal pieces as they are compress since the piston is moving upwards and the premature fire is pushing down the piston.

Regards,
Cesar
 
Dave,
Thats a damn good question, I'll ask the old man about it, there is alot of health problems that have come into play since the introduction of unleaded that are still being argued about, for example asthma in children is an all time high, we may never know how dangerous this stuff really is.
Seeya,
David.
 
David,

I just remembered something regarding fertility. The drop in female fertility can be explained by the fact that many women are waiting until they're over 35 before they try to have children. This doesn't explain the recent drop in male fertility, though, which some scientists have attributed to chemicals in the environment. I've heard that there has also been a similar effect amongst males of other animal species, in places like Europe, where polution levels are high.

Regards,
Dave
 
Cesar, I read somewhere that when you hear knocking/pre-ignition/pinging, this is when the combustion flame approaches the speed of sound. It's the mini 'sonic booms' that you hear, and that causes any damage, for example holing a piston. Higher octane fuel, like you suggest, actually burns slower and ignites at a higher temperature to reduce the amount this happens. A lot of people think higher octanes automatically give your car more power through being more explosive, but actually all kinds of petrol basically produce the same amount of energy per litre, therefore can do the same amount of work. The better performance comes from optimal ignition timing (hence optimising mechanical advantage) due to the anti knock properties.

I'm sure I'll get shot down in flames (propagating at the speed of sound...) if my memory doesn't serve me correctly
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Stuey.
 
Dave,
I ask the old man about the infertility and he agrees and knows all about it, but as he points out, there are a lot of health problems that we didn't have 15 years ago, apparently even cot death is at a record high but to blame unleaded fuel without proper testing makes us as guilty as the greenies.
Seeya,
David.
 
Stuey,
I'm not sure about the speed of sound but I learned about the knocking at a class at the University and that is what the teacher said. And as I recall, knocking came just from the metals compressing as they move upwards against the explosive forces. Any way, I'm going to check on that matter and find out more about the speed of sound thing.
If my memory is working correctly, the energy you can get from a liter of petrol comes from a property called flash point.
I have never been in Australia and I think it is a very flat country but If you are driving from a place at sea level to a very high point up in the mountains, lets say, then you might need to change your octane for a lower one as well as to re-adjust ignition timing. Taking off the air filter would help too when ambient pressure is too low.
Cesar

[This message has been edited by CESAR (edited 04 September 2001).]
 
Cesar,

Australia is not as flat as many people think.

The east coast (where most Australians live) is covered in many hills, small mountains (1000-2000 metres), and large forests and canyons. Compared to South America, Australian Mountains are small, but they are very wild.

2000 metres of altitude doesn't seem to make much difference to car engine combustion (compared to the Andes), but the roads are still very steep and curvy.

Are large part of Australia (the centre) is very flat, as you said, but almost nobody lives there (less than 1% of the population).

Regards,
Dave
 
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