The dry sump Gordini motor.

[PeterT]

I agree with the comments on head studs. ARP had nothing listed for Peugeot XU10J4. Their tech department/customer service was very helpful and recommended a Cummins diesel set, which also use M12x1.5. As I said earlier, Honda K20/K24 is M11x1.5.

Whilst more expensive initially, for a race engine they are cheaper, as TTY are one use only.

 

[Frans]

Hi All.

I have just started tightening the head and following up with the torque wrench I found the following. I started with 30 Nm and then 45 degrees. Another 45 degrees 90 in total. I then checked it with the torque wrench and matched it with 55 Nm. Another 45 and the torque wrench match came up with 75 Nm. The manual says 70 Nm.

So 135 degrees equals the factory setting more or less. Do I go another 135 degrees?

Maybe the bolts will only start stretching now. Maybe not.

What do you think??

 

[geckoeng]

Frans,
I would say that shows that a full torque all the way is the same as the degrees after all. I do think the degree system will be more accurate in a general workshop, as most mechanics are hap hazard when torquing up. But with those who are very precise with their torques will get very similar regions.

I was involved with a test while at college, a long time ago, and we analysed head bolt torques As you got to the proper torque of the bolt the grain structure was quite twisted. But if you undid the bolt and re-torqued it the spiral structure did not change much. Ford and Chev 6 cylinder head bolts.

Ray

 

[Greenpeace]

Hi All.

I have just started tightening the head and following up with the torque wrench I found the following. I started with 30 Nm and then 45 degrees. Another 45 degrees 90 in total. I then checked it with the torque wrench and matched it with 55 Nm. Another 45 and the torque wrench match came up with 75 Nm. The manual says 70 Nm.

So 135 degrees equals the factory setting more or less. Do I go another 135 degrees?

Maybe the bolts will only start stretching now. Maybe not.

What do you think??

Maybe try another 45 degrees?
I would have expected the gasket would be compressed at the 55Nm reading. If you picked up another 20Nm of torque on the subsequent 45 degrees, one would think if the bolt is entering it's plastic stage the next 45 degrees should yield less than a 20Nm increase?
Just go easy at it, it should feel different if the bolt is starting to stretch.
Unfortunately a bolt starting to stretch will feel similar to a thread starting to strip.

 

[Frans]

Okay, I'll do another 45 degrees. It is testing the nerves a little.

Frans.

 

[JohnW]

Frans,
I would say that shows that a full torque all the way is the same as the degrees after all. I do think the degree system will be more accurate in a general workshop, as most mechanics are hap hazard when torquing up. But with those who are very precise with their torques will get very similar regions.

I was involved with a test while at college, a long time ago, and we analysed head bolt torques As you got to the proper torque of the bolt the grain structure was quite twisted. But if you undid the bolt and re-torqued it the spiral structure did not change much. Ford and Chev 6 cylinder head bolts.

Ray

That's interesting. A form of 'work hardening'?

 

[COL]

The standard head bolts on Renault engines of this generation are done in three stages.

Stage 1: First torque setting
Stage 2: Second torque setting
Stage3: Re-torque at stage two after so many Kilometres

Not sure how those torque settings equate to modern system of low torque then so many degrees of rotation or how you get to do the stage 3 part unless you are using a different/modern head gasket with these modern head bolts. Lots of unknowns in this experiment. Still an interesting experiment and watching with interest so see what the final result and conclusion is.

 

[PeterT]

That's interesting. A form of 'work hardening'?

TTY is definitely a work hardening process.

 

[JohnW]

The standard head bolts on Renault engines of this generation are done in three stages.

Stage 1: First torque setting
Stage 2: Second torque setting
Stage3: Re-torque at stage two after so many Kilometres

Not sure how those torque settings equate to modern system of low torque then so many degrees of rotation or how you get to do the stage 3 part unless you are using a different/modern head gasket with these modern head bolts. Lots of unknowns in this experiment. Still an interesting experiment and watching with interest so see what the final result and conclusion is.

The new head gaskets don't seem to 'take up' as the old ones did, although the said "old ones" were a compound material and similarly 'took up' much less than the old copper gaskets. I have a few new copper gaskets for the 4CV, but won't use them as coolant practically runs through the centre part of the sandwich!

 

[dauphproto]

Maybe try another 45 degrees?
I would have expected the gasket would be compressed at the 55Nm reading. If you picked up another 20Nm of torque on the subsequent 45 degrees, one would think if the bolt is entering it's plastic stage the next 45 degrees should yield less than a 20Nm increase?
Just go easy at it, it should feel different if the bolt is starting to stretch.
Unfortunately a bolt starting to stretch will feel similar to a thread starting to strip.

What He said...... Go Easy though.

 

[PeterT]

If it helps any, the PSA XU9 head bolts, also M11x1.5 are
Stage 1: 60Nm, then slacken
Stage 2: 20Nm
Stage 3: 300º

Always heart in your mouth stuff, waiting for the aluminium block to strip.

 

[Frans]

All done as suggested. I gave it another 45-degree turn and then testing with the torque wrench, it looked like there could be slight movement at 85 Nm. That is where I left it. I have now set the valve clearances at this point.

Do you think that it is the right thing to leave it at this point?

Nothing is easy ala #dauphproto. The bolts was catching against the rocker cover on the trial fitting so I had to turn some of them down to clear the rocker cover. This is what it looks like eventually.

Regards, Frans.

 

[Greenpeace]

It's a hard one isn't it?
Certainly the increase in torque gained is falling away with each 45 degrees added.
Does that mean the bolt is stretching though?
Given that you're already 20% over the standard 70Nm torque setting, I would be reluctant to add any more.
85 Nm is getting up there for that size and TPI of bolt as well, particularly with lubricated threads.
I'd leave it at that, but at the end of the day the decision is yours.

 

[COL]

Can't be much clearance between the standard head bolts and that nice looking rocker.

Love your crankcase ventilation system on top of the rocker cover, very neat.

 

[geckoeng]

While you were all talking, I came across the Giant Killer Motor used in Cindy Evans-Finney motor for Classic Saloons in South Africa. A number of the top Renault people had a hand in this build with information from many years racing these things.

 

[JohnW]

NIce big air box!

 

[Shoji]

I'd name that engine "The Inhaler"

 

[Frans]

Hi,

Yes, I know about that engine. My worth is that the insides of the engine were Gordini as hot as you can get and behind the wheel a lady that could really pedal it!!

What they have done to the outsides is that the timing cover has been replaced with a 25mm thick alu plate that was machined to take the oil seals and on the externals you can see the the crank pulley at about 6 o'clock. then just above that is the cam belt tensioner pulley and then at 12 o'clock is the cam pulley that might have the vernier adjustment on it. Then at 3 o'clock is the dry sump pump. The water pump is electric and mounted elsewhere.

This mod was to replace the cam chain with a cam belt. The advantages were to drive the dry sump pump and the cam timing adjustment. The actual magic still happened internally.

This was after my time in ZA and I believe it went very well, however, it looks like the rule book got stolen because there isn't a chance that it would be allowed here or elsewhere in classic racing.

Regards, Frans.

 

[Frans]

I have just completed another 2 phases in the installation process of the dry sump engine. The valve operation is just in test mode on the bench, so don't judge the wiring.

The remote oil filter is now mounted in the engine compartment's firewall.

Then I made a gadget and tested it to close a valve to prevent backflow into the dry sump. I know that it is a gimmick but I made it in any case just because I can.. This will eliminate human error when I forget to open the valve and a bearing comes knocking at the door. As @dauphproto mentioned, the oil flows back into the dry sump when the car is left standing for a long time and drains the tank that is mounted elsewhere. There are ways and means to return the oil back to the tank before starting the car and then it is okay for the rest of the day because the backflow is usually very little due to the close tolerances of the pump gears/impellers.

This is what I have.

1) When the car is shut off for a long time, the 1/2" ball valve in the flow line will be shut through an electric actuator.
2) As soon as the main kill switch is turned on, the RED LED will be on and the actuator will open the valve fully to prime the pump in case there is a small amount of oil that leaked into the sump after the valve. Then the actuator will close the valve and the RED LED will be on. This should happen in the morning while the wheels and pressures are checked.
3) When the ignition is switched on, the actuator will open the valve and the GREEN LED will be on when the valve is fully open. For safety, the RED LED will come on immediately when the actuator has moved only 5 degrees from open so that I will know to turn the engine off and investigate.
4) After the race and back in the pit, I will turn the engine off but the valve will remain open for an adjustable time. This will be determined as time goes on. Theoretically, it can remain open for 4 hours. When we line up for the next heat it should or could still be open.
5) At the end of the day, after the kit has been loaded and maybe on the way home, the timer will time out and close the valve. The car is stored for a weeks or months with the valve closed and zero drain into the sump.
6) The main kill switch is turned on after a long time and the process starts again at #1 above.

This is the valve in the closed position. Note the indication on the valve shaft and the LED. Orange is the new red for testing.

Then when the valve is in the open position.

The valve in the open position is straight through, so no restriction of oil flow is possible as seen here.

Can any of the experienced dry sump guys think of a problem that I am creating for myself, or is it fancy?

Regards, Frans.

 

[Greenpeace]

My only experience with owning dry sump systems has been with a number of motorcycles. I've only ever once had a drain back issue and that was due to some grit under a pump valve on a Harley.
While I appreciate your ingenuity, why don't you just fit a mechanical anti-drainback check valve that companies like Moroso make for that very purpose?
I'd hate to see all your hard work get destroyed due to an electrical hiccup.
Just my 2 cents.