Starter solenoid wanted
- Thread starter bleudanube
- Start date
And you didn't know that because I stated it the wrong way around! Should be: Remote solenoid on battery and one wire going to the starter means you need the bridge/shunt at the starter. Without the remote solenoid at the battery there is an additional wire going to the solenoid on the starter and you don't want the bridge/shunt there. It's just something to keep it in mind when swapping starters between models.ahh!! didn't know that - learning all the time thanks David
Cheers
Chris
I am just going by whatever scraps of info transpires in these threads but yeah, I imagine the spiral cut grooves on the starter shaft push the gear into the ring to engage the flywheel.
I'm a little hazy on this too, but I'm not sure that's completely right. It is 'switched' (on my bvh car by the gear wand, not the ignition key) but it doesn't send power directly to the starter (windings). Power still goes to a starter solenoid. That solenoid still operates a fork to help throw out the pinion to engage with the flywheel, and it connects the high current cable from the battery to the starter windings.
I think that is not inconsistent with what David is saying (posts 20 and 22 in this thread). I've never really understood about the 'shunt'. I think the shunt/ bridge is the copper connection marked 'DEM(ARREUR)' in the photo here. On a car with a solenoid up by the battery, there is only the thick cable going to the starter solenoid. When operated, the shunt seems to to take some current via the thick cable to additionally operate the solenoid winding - like a relay. This then causes the starter winding to draw down a bigger current from the battery. Even if the starter solenoid was fed by a separate, key-switched, thin wire straight to the small screw post here (in addition to the thick wire from the battery) why does the 'DEM' shunt/ bridge need to be removed? What would happen if it wasn't?
This is now getting really confusing.
What's the point of the remote solenoid then? Is the starter so difficult to access and bridge the contacts to start it form the engine bay?
Terminology issue, I reckon it is simply an "engine bay" starting switch (turning motor over, eg compression test) with a few other features judging by the number of terminals.
The starter solenoid as many know it as is attached to the starter motor. This starter solenoid "throws out" the drive mechanism to start the engine activated by the ignition switch.
Okay, but if it is meant to be operated from the engine bay, why does it need a coil? And how do you operate it from the engine bay?
To answer your question .. YES
The starter is hidden under the exhaust manifold, and behind several belt driven accessories. The electrical cables are also up against the engine/bellhousing and are inevitably heat effected with brittle insulation. It also has heat shielding.
I Hope I get this right, I am using my unreliable memory! Being 1964 Sven's car would have a SM without a solenoid, an inertia type where the inertia of the gear causes it to slide along the spiral to engage the flywheel, Thus a separate solenoid is required to switch the high current, on the battery in this case, Around 1969 the starter motor was changed to the pre-engaged type with the solenoid on the SM. This made the battery mounted solenoid redundant, however for some reason they where retained for a couple of years! Sven now has the redundant one off my DS 21.
Woody
Woody
Correct Brian. Early starters (what Sven will have) do not have the solenoid at the starter that throw a fork that moves the pinion into gear and so it needs the remote solenoid to handle the starting current. However, the discussion changed to cover the later type starter and that's where the bridge / shunt becomes an issue when replacing a starter. The later type solenoid both throws the fork and performs the 'relay' switching job of the earlier remote solenoid. So. it is technically redundant, but still fitted in a few models, probably to initially avoid changing the wiring. Where the remote solenoid was not fitted to later manual models, there is an extra flying lead behind the dash for the starter.
So I was right on both counts. The remote starter solenoid is either THE starter solenoid or redundant.
Judging from the parts manual, pre '67 cars do not have a solenoid on the starter so the battery post solenoid is needed.
Post '67 cars move the solenoid to the starter motor however Citroen decided to be "clever" and give the cars a starter interlock feature by connecting the starter switch between the battery post solenoid (positive) and the (grounded) voltage regulator L terminal. When the alternator output is high enough, the voltage regulator disconnects the earth thus disabling the starter motor. The battery post relay is there to flip the ground signal to 12v and run the starter motor. A shunt is needed so that when 12V is sent down the big cable to the starter motor it activates the solenoid first which then closes a second set of contacts to run the motor once the pinion has been pushed out.
IDs don't tend to have this feature so the starter switch provides 12v direct to the starter solenoid and the shunt on the starter is deleted. As David said, with the shunt in place the starter motor will try and pull some of the 300 amps through the starter switch and probably start a fire.
In answer to post #7 those battery post solenoids are surprisingly robust. The 52 year old one on my car has survived a flood, an engine fire as well as having 3 firehoses blasted at it and still works perfectly. Now I've said that, it will probably die tomorrow just to spite me.......
Post '67 cars move the solenoid to the starter motor however Citroen decided to be "clever" and give the cars a starter interlock feature by connecting the starter switch between the battery post solenoid (positive) and the (grounded) voltage regulator L terminal. When the alternator output is high enough, the voltage regulator disconnects the earth thus disabling the starter motor. The battery post relay is there to flip the ground signal to 12v and run the starter motor. A shunt is needed so that when 12V is sent down the big cable to the starter motor it activates the solenoid first which then closes a second set of contacts to run the motor once the pinion has been pushed out.
IDs don't tend to have this feature so the starter switch provides 12v direct to the starter solenoid and the shunt on the starter is deleted. As David said, with the shunt in place the starter motor will try and pull some of the 300 amps through the starter switch and probably start a fire.
In answer to post #7 those battery post solenoids are surprisingly robust. The 52 year old one on my car has survived a flood, an engine fire as well as having 3 firehoses blasted at it and still works perfectly. Now I've said that, it will probably die tomorrow just to spite me.......
Hmmmm, post 67 don’t have the battery terminal manual solenoid anymore? My 70 DSuper did have it though… and I doubt it was added afterwards. Thoughts?
In manual 814, wiring section Op. DX. 510-00f covers all vehicles from September 69 onwards. The diagram still shows the relay up on the battery. The next wiring diagram in the manual is for cars from April 1971 onwards and, on that diagram, there is no solenoid by the battery. So it looks as though they were still being fitted in the 1970 model year.
Somebody please explain what this "battery" solenoid is all about. I've been playing with motor vehicles for 55 plus years and a solenoid to me has always been an electric device using electro magnetism to move something (a rod within a coil) to achieve the required result, make contacts or activate something.
The automotive starter motor requires a lot of power judging by the size of the power cable. In a standard (if there such a thing) application / set up, there is a solenoid on the starter motor to activate the throw out mechanism to turn the vehicle's engine over after making contact with the power cable and the starter.
Looking at the photo of the "battery solenoid", there is no big heavy cable emanating from this battery solenoid providing the required heavy current to drive the starter motor in order to turn the engine over.
Surely, this battery solenoid is there to drive the starter solenoid in order to drive the starter motor as in a standard application.
I can see the benefit of reducing current flow from the ignition switch and the benefits of cranking an engine over from within "under the bonnet".
A friend has had his 1974 DS 23 IE starter rebuild and the moment (after earthing battery -ve to the starter body and making contact with the solenoid's +ve terminal it fires up!
The auto electrician says that's the way that starter motor works, that is, it requires a different solenoid if you want it to work the "conventional way".
I believe that the friend's D has a battery solenoid.
How can a battery solenoid fulfill the current requirements of the starter motor?
I am really confused, what don't I understand?
John
The automotive starter motor requires a lot of power judging by the size of the power cable. In a standard (if there such a thing) application / set up, there is a solenoid on the starter motor to activate the throw out mechanism to turn the vehicle's engine over after making contact with the power cable and the starter.
Looking at the photo of the "battery solenoid", there is no big heavy cable emanating from this battery solenoid providing the required heavy current to drive the starter motor in order to turn the engine over.
Surely, this battery solenoid is there to drive the starter solenoid in order to drive the starter motor as in a standard application.
I can see the benefit of reducing current flow from the ignition switch and the benefits of cranking an engine over from within "under the bonnet".
A friend has had his 1974 DS 23 IE starter rebuild and the moment (after earthing battery -ve to the starter body and making contact with the solenoid's +ve terminal it fires up!
The auto electrician says that's the way that starter motor works, that is, it requires a different solenoid if you want it to work the "conventional way".
I believe that the friend's D has a battery solenoid.
How can a battery solenoid fulfill the current requirements of the starter motor?
I am really confused, what don't I understand?
John
The solenoid at the battery does have a heavy cable to connect it to the starter. I suspect the picture you are referring to, simply doesn't show it.
Attachments
Look more carefully in Sven's original picture and you will just about make out the heavy gauge cable going out. It is quite clearly visible in the second picture (disassembled solenoid).
Look more carefully in Sven's original picture and you will just about make out the heavy gauge cable going out (down, away from you into the darkness of the engine bay). It is quite clearly visible in the second picture (disassembled solenoid), right lower corner of the picture. Looks a bit ratty.
David S has explained quite well what these were supposed to be doing.
Look more carefully in Sven's original picture and you will just about make out the heavy gauge cable going out (down, away from you into the darkness of the engine bay). It is quite clearly visible in the second picture (disassembled solenoid), right lower corner of the picture. Looks a bit ratty.
David S has explained quite well what these were supposed to be doing.
Okay, thank you all, it's all falling into place.
My friends refurbished starter motor is correct provided that the big +ve terminal behind the solenoid on the starter is connected to the "battery solenoid" and not direct from the battery.
Explains why the autoelectrician said that that starter motor requires a foot operated "foot switch" not being familiar of how Citroen do things.
One reason for the confusion is that the refurbished starter motor DID not come from his D but purchased separately.
Quite possible that his D has been previously attended to as David S explained notwithstanding that it maybe original.
Once again thanks.
John
My friends refurbished starter motor is correct provided that the big +ve terminal behind the solenoid on the starter is connected to the "battery solenoid" and not direct from the battery.
Explains why the autoelectrician said that that starter motor requires a foot operated "foot switch" not being familiar of how Citroen do things.
One reason for the confusion is that the refurbished starter motor DID not come from his D but purchased separately.
Quite possible that his D has been previously attended to as David S explained notwithstanding that it maybe original.
Once again thanks.
John