Renault's Australian Outlook

[Haakon]

Maybe Renault should be selling the Traffic via Holden dealers. Before you think I'm nuts, its already badged a Vauxhall in the UK!! (where you will be able to buy a Vauxhall badged Monaro next year too)

http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/brand.jhtml?brand=Vivaro&vehicleType=Van

 

[Europa]

In some ways sticking Nissan badges on the vehicles and positioning them within the Nissan range might be a better ploy.

I disagree with that. In the short term, maybe that is a solution, but in the long term - you have to TELL people what they want. This is what advertising is all about, and if it's done properly it will work.

As a further point re volume manufacturers (ie. Toyota) versus Renault - why aren't we seeing the same argument put for for Peugeot?

 

[Europa]

I think that the Australian buying publics perceptions have changed from the days of the Peugeot 504's and Renault 12's. In the 70's people used to think that the Japs were jap crap. These days the average punter thinks that the Japanese make a more reliable and durable product than the (non-german) Europeans. Unless you can match (or better) the Jap prices, your going to struggle to move numbers.

That's an absolute generalisation. If this was the case, why do you see so few Honda Legends compared to equivalent BMW/Mercedes?

Not EVERYONE is looking just for price. Some people will pay a little more for style/safety or even the perception of that.

A car is much more of a fashion statement than it once was.

I don't think Renault are going for the "crapbox" market here in Australia. If they wanted to target that, they'd bring in Samsung.

 

[mistareno]

That's an absolute generalisation. If this was the case, why do you see so few Honda Legends compared to equivalent BMW/Mercedes?

Not EVERYONE is looking just for price. Some people will pay a little more for style/safety or even the perception of that.

A car is much more of a fashion statement than it once was.

I don't think Renault are going for the "crapbox" market here in Australia. If they wanted to target that, they'd bring in Samsung.

1. I did say non-german

2. Have you heard of a little mob called Lexus?

3. I dont consider Toyota to be a builder of "crapbox" cars. If you do then your head has been firmly buried in the sand. They may not be innovative or indiviualistic like Peugeots and Renaults, but they are efficient, reliable, durable and competent.

4. Renault and Peugeot should be using that fashion advantage as a selling tool. Not as the reason for bumping up prices or badge perception.

5. People wil only spend extra money on a car when times are good. During the recession of the early 90's the cars that got hit hardest were the premium price products.

6. Renault and Peugeot are the French Holden and Ford, They should be priced accordingly. If they are over inflated when new and "stylish", when their style fades and they are judged on function and size as a used car, their resale plummets (ask R25 owners)

7. An example being the Renault 19. It was a french Corolla. It does nothing particuarly exceptionally (my father owns one so I know). They are slow, noisy and bland, (although economical) yet they were placed at the premium end of the small car market. My wife drives an early 90's Corolla and to be honest it does everthing aswell as my Dad's R19, and it's still worth about $8k....whats an R19 worth these days? 5-6K?

 

[Europa]

1. Missed that. Sorry.

2. Lexus make fine cars. They obviously appreciate Mercedes/BMW if their external styling is any indication.

3. I was referring to the earlier discussions of Daewoo etc. not Toyota. Toyota make a fine (maybe slightly mundane) product.

4. Well I think maybe they are. New Megane advert is an example.

5. The previous price listed here of the Toyota Corolla Seca Conquest is not a lot less than Megane. A feature list comparison would be interesting.

6. The R25 is a good example of extreme depreciation. However, I don't think you can say that the sole reason for it's depreciation is because the car fails to be functionally less useful. Lack of any dealers to provide service would have to have been a huge factor in the depreciation. With regard to prices, have you seen the price they are asking for a Monaro in the UK? It's very high. That is an example of Australias "bread & butter" being sold above it's standing in another country. In another industry example, I believe Corona beer sells for 90c a bottle in Mexico but sells for $5.00 plus here - and people pay for it. You can ask for a premium price in another country provided you market it accordingly with appropriate differentiators.

7. I agree totally with your R19 comments, having driven one myself (albeit only for one day). Based on my experience, I would say the Toyota would have probably been the better car of the two. Anyone got any idea of the equivalent Peugeot depreciation in this example? I'm wondering (again) if lack of Renault dealer support in Australia has also contributed to this.

 

[STALLED]

Well remember if the pricing is lowered on the cars, this will eat into Renaults profit margins considerably in Australia, making Renault have to sell more cars to make the same profit!

Cya Stalled

 

[Simon]

6. Renault and Peugeot are the French Holden and Ford, They should be priced accordingly. If they are over inflated when new and "stylish", when their style fades and they are judged on function and size as a used car, their resale plummets (ask R25 owners)

If this is the case, why are the smaller Pugs and VW's selling so well if they are priced above your perceived market sector???

As for R25 resale, look at many other similarly priced similar market segment cars of the same age, all now have quite low resale values. Admittedly the Renault would be at the lower end of the spectrum, but probably not too bad when tyou consider the low numbers sold and virtual lack of support in the intervening years.

7. An example being the Renault 19. It was a french Corolla. It does nothing particuarly exceptionally (my father owns one so I know). They are slow, noisy and bland, (although economical) yet they were placed at the premium end of the small car market. My wife drives an early 90's Corolla and to be honest it does everthing aswell as my Dad's R19, and it's still worth about $8k....whats an R19 worth these days? 5-6K?

I agree totally with your first point, but not your second. Mum bought a new Corolla Seca in 1989, so that was my benchmark when I looked at buying a 19 in 1991 (as well as my old 12). The 19 was seriously a poor road performer although fairly well equipped for the time. At a quoted price of around $24k on the road, I considered it poor value for money based mainly on its lack of performance the related old technology motor. But again, considering the lack of support for 19's the resale isn't too bad when compared with an equivalent age Corolla with its reputation for reliability service support everywhere etc..

Renault now seem to have the performance/ equipment aspect sorted, and amongst the comparable cars they do seem good VFM, I reckon they just need to refocus the promotion on what you get over competing cars at the comparable price level besides a car with a big rump!

 

[Simon]

7. ........Anyone got any idea of the equivalent Peugeot depreciation in this example? ........

Mid 90's 306 hatch (excluding S16's) seem to range from $6-10K

Corollas range $6-10K as well. Some higher some lower.

 

[Pug307]

1.6 Peugeot 307xe - 25990 (AC, no Alloys)
1.8 Toyota Corolla Seca Conquest - 24240 (AC, with Alloys and 100kw motor)

Ahh, but you need to add ABS to the Corolla's price - $25,140.

At the time I ordered the car (MAR02) the gap was smaller. You needed to get the $1400 safety pack in the Corolla to add ABS & a front passenger airbag, and the Conquest didn't have alloys & rear power windows back then. Link.

Even so, you're still down 4 airbags, you don't have climate control, you don't have the trip computer, you don't have Tiptronic in the auto, you don't get the telescoping steering column, height adjustable passenger seat, temperature gauge, two speakers down, no audio stalk, no anti whiplash active headrests, no all round one touch windows, no refrigerated glovebox, rear reading light, remote window closing, dual illuminated vanity mirrors, sunglasses holder, boot net, bonnet sound insulation, heated mirrors, front armrests, driver's grab handle, etc, etc. Some of these are fairly trivial though

There's definately more than $850 of value there - just airbags & climate control alone are potentially $2k worth.

If Peugeot offered a 307ex (Front power windows, no trip computer, airbags x 2 for $19990 with air as a $1000 option) they would sel like hot cakes.

It'd be cheaper than the Corolla too.

Corolla Ascent - $19990.

But you need to add $1640 for A/C & $1400 for a passenger airbag & ABS.

So Corolla costs $23,030. But the 307 in that scenario costs $20990.

A trip computer probably costs about 50c to put in. It's just a case of activating it in the software, there's no extra electronic capability required in the 307, only the button at the end of the stalk.

 

[mistareno]

Ahh, but you need to add ABS to the Corolla's price - $25,140.

At the time I ordered the car (MAR02) the gap was smaller. You needed to get the $1400 safety pack in the Corolla to add ABS & a front passenger airbag, and the Conquest didn't have alloys & rear power windows back then. Link.

Even so, you're still down 4 airbags, you don't have climate control, you don't have the trip computer, you don't have Tiptronic in the auto, you don't get the telescoping steering column, height adjustable passenger seat, temperature gauge, two speakers down, no audio stalk, no anti whiplash active headrests, no all round one touch windows, no refrigerated glovebox, rear reading light, remote window closing, dual illuminated vanity mirrors, sunglasses holder, boot net, bonnet sound insulation, heated mirrors, front armrests, driver's grab handle, etc, etc. Some of these are fairly trivial though

There's definately more than $850 of value there - just airbags & climate control alone are potentially $2k worth.


It'd be cheaper than the Corolla too.

Corolla Ascent - $19990.

But you need to add $1640 for A/C & $1400 for a passenger airbag & ABS.

So Corolla costs $23,030. But the 307 in that scenario costs $20990.

A trip computer probably costs about 50c to put in. It's just a case of activating it in the software, there's no extra electronic capability required in the 307, only the button at the end of the stalk.

I don't dipute that the Peugeot is good value for money.

All I am saying is when people see a starting price of $19990 for the Pulsar and Corolla and a starting price of $25990 for the 307, people assume it's out of their price range/overpriced.

They dont delve into the depths of option lists, because to be honest, if it's got Air-con, it's comfortable to drive (ie- a good seating position can be found) and it looks classy inside, thats all the luxury most want in the small segment.

Most people (not you Justin) with trip computers rarely use them. Thats what the fuel guage is for.

If Renault expects to sell anywhere near cough 27000 cough units by 07, then they better have some fancy tricks up their sleeve.

Would I buy a Renault Megane 1.6 16V with air (and no eletrics except the mirrors) for 20K..Yep, I'd be down there tomorrow with money in hand.

 

[Simon]

I don't dipute that the Peugeot is good value for money.

All I am saying is when people see a starting price of $19990 for the Pulsar and Corolla and a starting price of $25990 for the 307, people assume it's out of their price range/overpriced.

But they must do, because I've seen a lot around so there must be some buyers! Again the buyers would perceive the Pug to be better overall value and are likely to be a different maket segment buyer than that of a Corolla or Pulsar.

 

[mistareno]

Small Family Cars
Sales King - Toyota Corolla - 33091 units.

1. 307 - 3595 units
2. Scenic - 1162 units (incl. RX4)
2. Xsara - 314 units (I have added Xsara 3 & 5 door figures together)

The advantage that the 307 has over the Megane is that it looks like it's a bigger car than others in it's class due to its mini MPV styling. The Megane looks no bigger than than a Corolla or Pulsar and the packaging isn't clas leading from what I've seen and read.

I wonder if Justin can tell us what percentage of Corolla sales were base models and how many went to fleet/goverment sales.

 

[R17G]

The advantage that the 307 has over the Megane is that it looks like it's a bigger car than others in it's class due to its mini MPV styling. The Megane looks no bigger than than a Corolla or Pulsar and the packaging isn't class leading from what I've seen and read.

I definately disagree on the point that the 307 looks bigger than the Megane. Have you seen one in the metal? I went to look at the 5 door Dynamique LX, and it looks quite large for its class, particularly in its width. It definately looks bigger than either Corolla or Pulsar.
And from what I have seen and read it won european car of the year, is the sales leader for its class in europe, its the first car in its class to achieve a 5 star crash rating and the highly critical tv show 5th Gear loved it.
Also it looks much better in the metal than in photos, and I was originally uneasy when I had just seen photos. I also liked the interior.
I like it, and originally I wasn't so sure. And yes I would definately buy one.

P.S. The side profile of the 307 and Honda Civic Hatch are very similar! (And yes I do like Pugs). :afplak:

 

[jr20516v]

Had a look at the new Megane today, its going to be one of those cars IMO that
look stunning in a certain color and ruddy horrible in others.
Saw it in black as well as silver....Wow!! Then saw a maroon one and well..yuk!!

cheers jr

 

[Stuey]

Just caught up with this thread...been a bit busy.

One extremely clear misconception in the marketplace is that servicing costs and parts for Renaults (and other non-premium Euro cars) are much more than the equivalent volume brand. This REALLY needs to be tackled by advertising, for otherwise they'll never overcome that sales hump. At least once a week I get the question put to me (after pushing a Renault/Pug alternative) "but aren't they really expensive to service". Newspaper advertising not only pushing the different choice that a Renault makes style and dynamics wise, but a comparision table of common parts prices (like some magazines have in their tests) would probably help.

Stuey

 

[BogMaster]

Just caught up with this thread...been a bit busy.

One extremely clear misconception in the marketplace is that servicing costs and parts for Renaults (and other non-premium Euro cars) are much more than the equivalent volume brand. This REALLY needs to be tackled by advertising, for otherwise they'll never overcome that sales hump. At least once a week I get the question put to me (after pushing a Renault/Pug alternative) "but aren't they really expensive to service". Newspaper advertising not only pushing the different choice that a Renault makes style and dynamics wise, but a comparision table of common parts prices (like some magazines have in their tests) would probably help.

Stuey

Right on Stuey, unfortunately some repairers have thrived on the specialist high cost crap and have made a motza in the process. Citroen in particular seems prone to this kind of operator, but each non big three brand has it's share of third party sharks. My missus got done by a Subaru/VW shark in Syndey who charged her $360 to change a drive shaft boot and wash the engine...it was written up on the invoice like "War and Peace" but that was it. $130 maximum of work for the discount price of $360...and he convinced her it was a bargain. It is no wonder that rumours about servicing costs get started.

Getting back to the notion of Renault becoming the new KIA , Daewoo won some market share and brand recognition with the 3 years servicing built into the lowish price. That would have be an ecouragement to discount rumours and old wives tales about servicing costs.

 

[XTC]

Most people (not you Justin) with trip computers rarely use them. Thats what the fuel guage is for.

I find the trip computer great .. use it all the time, but I guess many people like to just leave the date displayed ... dunno

- XTC206 -

 

[frogs4ever]

Just caught up with this thread...been a bit busy.

One extremely clear misconception in the marketplace is that servicing costs and parts for Renaults (and other non-premium Euro cars) are much more than the equivalent volume brand....

Stuey

That's a very good point Stuey. It's something that I run in onto with alarming predictability whenever a conversation starts off with "what sort of car is that?". Even after I've given a string of examples of pricing for typical parts, folk are often not convinced because the expensive parts and service myth is VERY deeply ingrained. It needs to be countered by some great advertising and service deals.

I think the size and reputation of the local dealer is an important factor too. Down here in Hobart, Tasmania, the local Peugeot dealer is Tilford, who are also Hobart's Ford dealer. There are an astonishing number of recent model pugs on the roads down here. I wouldn't mind betting that part of the reason for this is the perceived piece of mind in knowing that you have one of Hobarts biggest car dealers backing the parts and service side of things. In contrast, Renault is handled by City Motors Sandy Bay, a much smaller, prestige-oriented dealer. The number of new Renaults on the roads down here is dismal and insignificant in comparison with Peugeot.

 

[MY 4]

Hi Guys,

interesting thread, this one. I've been reading everyone's posts, and there's some very valid points raised.

I only disagree with one thing though, well it may not be total disagreement, more a point that i think hasn't been covered.

I have a Clio RS, for those who didn't notice the avatar ....

The cost factor of parts...i wouldn't be saying it's "cheap"...
The last few times i have had my car serviced at the dealers, i've had to pay a huge amount due to the cost of replacing brake parts. Apparently the discs are made to wear out almost as frequently as the pads. Each time this has been serviced it's brought the total service cost in excess of $800. (Once for the front brakes, then a second time for rear brakes).

However, i don't know whether this is more or less than any other similar spec' car...

But it seems to me that the parts are made to wear frequently, to increase on-going costs of the car.

 

[Stuey]

Dave, the comments were really about the whole range on average. That is, Renaults (for example) aren't more expensive than similar quality cars from other makers to service.

Your experience is sort of unique though, as the characteristics of those discs is a quirk of the car. They're not designed to wear out in any particular time, but I believe, are made out of soft-ish material in order to give a strong initial bite to the brakes. I think they work better when wet, too, than harder discs.

Stuey