Renault 16TS air con?

[jaahn]

Hi angru
Just an additional thought to while away those long shifts.
The condensor does not have to be mounted in front off the radiator. You can mount it somewhere else where the air will flow and have some electric fan(s). Some small vans and also middle sized vans and buses have them elsewhere. My Sprinter has the condensor at the side behind the drivers door down low underneath. This may not be all that useful but no charge ?
Jaahn

 

[nauli]

I have seen a couple of modern aftermarket small & compact units installed in historic cars (eg 50's Bentley) by a guy who does some work on my A110 and Delta Integrale....Ray (Gecko Eng) knows what/who I'm talking about. They are relatively inexpensive and work very well without looking like big ugly tack on units. Do a Google search.

 

[JohnW]

I have seen a couple of modern aftermarket small & compact units installed in historic cars (eg 50's Bentley) by a guy who does some work on my A110 and Delta Integrale....Ray (Gecko Eng) knows what/who I'm talking about. They are relatively inexpensive and work very well without looking like big ugly tack on units. Do a Google search.

Electric drive by any chance?

 

[3006882]

But with the R12, you run the compressor from the crankshaft pulley not the camshaft..... Ours had the compressor mounted below the alternator, which was elevated with single belts and a fabricated mounting system.

I do like the idea of an electric compressor - how many amps does it draw please? I'm pondering alternator size!

Cheers

John

I should have pointed out that my R12 has a 17 engine in it, hence the compressor location problems.
I can't recall the amp draw off the top of my head, but it runs through an 80 amp breaker, so I assume its peak draw is 60-70 amp and 40-50 constant.
The build is still in progress, so I haven't had a chance to gas it and test it yet. I also haven't gotten around to having the alternator rebuilt for all of the extra load yet either.

 

[nauli]

Electric drive by any chance?

Not 100% sure John...

 

[geckoeng]

Angru,
The "Bently" is using quite a large modern compressor as it is attached to a large Rolls V8, and it is belt driven. An electric unit has not been tried yet, as they require 120-140Amps to keep medium size units running. And they make as much load as the compressors.

I have started sketching the unit I will be using on my 16TX. It will use a small Mazda or Fiesta compressor, and will be run off of a driveshaft. The compressor mounted to the gearbox. I will make a special multi-v pulley to mount on the inner drive shaft coupling, and a spring tensioner to take up any slack. I do not consider it a problem that it stops running while standing still as they make enough cool air that when they get running again it catches up with cooling the car.

I will run a similar set up on my R10/1.4, and will turn the compressor off at idle. Switching back on at about 1500-1700RPM. The switching can be done through my ECU.

Ray

 

[JohnW]

Angru,
The "Bently" is using quite a large modern compressor as it is attached to a large Rolls V8, and it is belt driven. An electric unit has not been tried yet, as they require 120-140Amps to keep medium size units running. And they make as much load as the compressors.

I have started sketching the unit I will be using on my 16TX. It will use a small Mazda or Fiesta compressor, and will be run off of a driveshaft. The compressor mounted to the gearbox. I will make a special multi-v pulley to mount on the inner drive shaft coupling, and a spring tensioner to take up any slack. I do not consider it a problem that it stops running while standing still as they make enough cool air that when they get running again it catches up with cooling the car.

I will run a similar set up on my R10/1.4, and will turn the compressor off at idle. Switching back on at about 1500-1700RPM. The switching can be done through my ECU.

Ray

That's interesting! Thanks - I'm looking forward to the AC on an R10. And I agree re the load - the energy has to come from somewhere although the battery can supply peaks I guess, or troughs in generation when idling.

With our R12 AC, it was painful in heavy traffic as the AC was off more than on. It was brilliant once on the move.

 

[JohnW]

I should have pointed out that my R12 has a 17 engine in it, hence the compressor location problems.
I can't recall the amp draw off the top of my head, but it runs through an 80 amp breaker, so I assume its peak draw is 60-70 amp and 40-50 constant.
The build is still in progress, so I haven't had a chance to gas it and test it yet. I also haven't gotten around to having the alternator rebuilt for all of the extra load yet either.

Ah. 40-50 amps doesn't sound much - our Citroen CX has a 120 amp Bosch alternator.

 

[robmac]

R 16 TS engine run off crank which is the best way:

Yep, would be no e if here was space for it. Not in a 16TS engine bay though. If I can find a setup I’ll run it off the cam and if it breaks I’ll fix it. Thinking about it though, have fixed a lot more cx’s with noisy timing chains than r15/16/17 motors, maybe because they do generally have more running off them. Suppose to other way would be electric compressor like a Prius or something. I already need a bigger alternator to run my driving lights.

EDIT. after a quick look it seems prius run hi voltage for their A/C so that won’t work. Back to the cmashaft.

Toyota Prius air compressors are 110 volt afaik.

12 volt compressors are available but seldom feasible.
http://www.streetfx.com.au/cms/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-05-at-10.25.18-pm.jpg

With a typical current draw of 55-80 amps at 13.6 volts (don't believe the brochure). A larger alternator is needed, and drive belt issues are transferred from the compressor to the alternator. The conversion losses add to the DC power required.

Best to drive the compressor directly with a a poly vee belt and use a modern variable angle swash plate unit. Nearly all modern compressors have some kid of flexible coupling built into the clutch.

 

[JohnW]

Toyota Prius air compressors are 110 volt afaik. 12 volt compressors are available but seldom feasible. http://www.streetfx.com.au/cms/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-05-at-10.25.18-pm.jpg With a typical current draw of 55-80 amps at 13.6 volts (don't believe the brochure). A larger alternator is needed, and drive belt issues are transferred from the compressor to the alternator. The conversion losses add to the DC power required. Best to drive the compressor directly with a a poly vee belt and use a modern variable angle swash plate unit. Nearly all modern compressors have some kid of flexible coupling built into the clutch.

You've been away? Hope all's well.

It seems to me that the advantage of an electric drive compressor would be mostly to do with geometry in the engine bay and making a possibility of putting it in at all. Easier to put in a huge alternator and then wires to the compressor? I worked with a guy once who claimed that he had an air-conditioned VW beetle but he couldn't describe how it was done.

I wonder what the efficiency would be of an inverter to get 110V from 12V?

 

[robmac]

I've done some checking. From what I can find Initially Prius used a high voltage DC compressor, I think 100 or 200v.

Later hybrids use a 3 phase 200 volt (frequency unknown) AC unit. Th compressor is powered from an inverter located in the midships of the trans axle.

I 'm thinking the frequency could 400 hertz, because of improved conversion efficiency in the inverter and to save copper in the motor winding.

400 HZ is widely used frequency for power supplies in aircraft and ships. Because transformers and motor run more efficiently.

For what it's worth some inverters are quoting a 96% efficiency. And well designed switch mode power supplies achieve slightly better conversion efficiency than that.