Im trying to make my pug a dominant force in town, when it comes to performance parts i was already considering an induction kit, racing cylinder head, a performance chip, and i was wondering what you guys would recommend.
Performance Parts For My 89 405 Mi16
- Thread starter Doug C
- Start date
I have looked into several modifications for my car and developed the following scenario based in research and half the expected imporvements of people doing the work and estimated costs
Standard 155hp
1. Current mods - Pod intake and Remus zorst - 164hp
2. Cylinder head ported - 180hp $700AUD
3. Matched extractors - 189hp $500AUD
3. Remamped ECU - 205hp $800AUD
4. Uprated fuel injection - (prol no gain)
5. Quad throttle bodies - 220hp $1000
6. 10% oversized intake valves - 230hp $700
7. Mild Cam - 240hp $1000
and from there the sky is the limit. I think the ECU would need to be done again to make the most of mods done after its first change.
There was this part I did see somewhere which increased the fuel presure giving alot more responce to the engine, kinda like what a twin weber setup achieves. Anyone know of it?
Standard 155hp
1. Current mods - Pod intake and Remus zorst - 164hp
2. Cylinder head ported - 180hp $700AUD
3. Matched extractors - 189hp $500AUD
3. Remamped ECU - 205hp $800AUD
4. Uprated fuel injection - (prol no gain)
5. Quad throttle bodies - 220hp $1000
6. 10% oversized intake valves - 230hp $700
7. Mild Cam - 240hp $1000
and from there the sky is the limit. I think the ECU would need to be done again to make the most of mods done after its first change.
There was this part I did see somewhere which increased the fuel presure giving alot more responce to the engine, kinda like what a twin weber setup achieves. Anyone know of it?
Phasis,
unless you plan to do alot of the work yourself, you have been very optimistic with your pricing.
And your 240bhp target is pretty much accurate but wont be too easy to get with just a mild cam.
240bhp will pretty much be the limit for a raod car.
Here are a few things you missed.
The ecu, is that a piggy back like the unichip? as even they cost about $1000 fitted and tuned.
If it's a programmable ecu you'll need to add a loom and possibly some sensors...and another $1000-2000 depending on ecu.
Throttle bodies, i'd budget $1200 just to be safe.
But you need an inlet manifold...though i've seen the S16 manifold and it may be almost perfect for it.
There will also be little extras, air filter, fuel rail possibly...
Extractors, to have them done properly by someone that'll spend time on them instead of just assuming what'll work will cost closer to $1000 if not more.
Then unless you're fitting it all yourself there's the labour and dyno tuning, yet again unless you know someone expect to pay upwards of $100 per hour on the rollers.
It's never as cheap as you think it will be!!!
Andreas
p.s forgot to add, you asked about the fuel pressure part.
I assume you mean a FSE power boost valve?
it's a glorified fuel pressure regulator.
pay $180 for a malpassi fuel pressure reg and save yourself $2-300.
And in the Uk the stories about the "power boost valve" have been somewhat sceptical in most cases.
<small>[ 19 April 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]</small>
unless you plan to do alot of the work yourself, you have been very optimistic with your pricing.
And your 240bhp target is pretty much accurate but wont be too easy to get with just a mild cam.
240bhp will pretty much be the limit for a raod car.
Here are a few things you missed.
The ecu, is that a piggy back like the unichip? as even they cost about $1000 fitted and tuned.
If it's a programmable ecu you'll need to add a loom and possibly some sensors...and another $1000-2000 depending on ecu.
Throttle bodies, i'd budget $1200 just to be safe.
But you need an inlet manifold...though i've seen the S16 manifold and it may be almost perfect for it.
There will also be little extras, air filter, fuel rail possibly...
Extractors, to have them done properly by someone that'll spend time on them instead of just assuming what'll work will cost closer to $1000 if not more.
Then unless you're fitting it all yourself there's the labour and dyno tuning, yet again unless you know someone expect to pay upwards of $100 per hour on the rollers.
It's never as cheap as you think it will be!!!
Andreas
p.s forgot to add, you asked about the fuel pressure part.
I assume you mean a FSE power boost valve?
it's a glorified fuel pressure regulator.
pay $180 for a malpassi fuel pressure reg and save yourself $2-300.
And in the Uk the stories about the "power boost valve" have been somewhat sceptical in most cases.
<small>[ 19 April 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]</small>
Yeah, these costs were probably only parts cost. You have done some of this work so you should know.
About the malpassi fuel pressure reg, Have you got one? Would it be a worthwhile upgrade? Thats one thing I do notice between the Pug and my old Alfa Sprint which had twin Webers...the throttle response when blipping and with light inputs.
About the malpassi fuel pressure reg, Have you got one? Would it be a worthwhile upgrade? Thats one thing I do notice between the Pug and my old Alfa Sprint which had twin Webers...the throttle response when blipping and with light inputs.
Most modern car's run rich up high anyway to be safe against nasty detonation demons. With that case in point, it's fair to assume that more fuel pressure on a modern car is virtually useless.
As far as when it's needed, I believe I Andreas said somewhere that the standard injectors run out of puff at around 195hp or so - but I'm not sure if that was with upped fuel pressure or not - Andreas?
A Unichip has always seemed like a good idea to me, I did a fair amount of research on them a while back. I spoke to Croydon Autosports a while ago and they said they were not sure about Peugeots with Magneto Marelli engine management.
As far as when it's needed, I believe I Andreas said somewhere that the standard injectors run out of puff at around 195hp or so - but I'm not sure if that was with upped fuel pressure or not - Andreas?
A Unichip has always seemed like a good idea to me, I did a fair amount of research on them a while back. I spoke to Croydon Autosports a while ago and they said they were not sure about Peugeots with Magneto Marelli engine management.
immys16 and I looked into Powerchip. They had 3 different ones avaliable, offering 10-15hp i think ranging from $700-$900
<a href="http://www.powerchip.com.au/chips/chip.asp?cid=Peu0012" target="_blank">web page</a>
<a href="http://www.powerchip.com.au/chips/chip.asp?cid=Peu0012" target="_blank">web page</a>
Phasis - before you go and buy a powerchip, if you're not a member of Autospeed send me an email, I have some useful info for you.
In short, Powerchip are a joke. They don't even have a dyno. They have no basis for any of their claims and they are full of lies.
At least with a Unichip, they are tuned while the car is on the dyno.
In short, Powerchip are a joke. They don't even have a dyno. They have no basis for any of their claims and they are full of lies.
At least with a Unichip, they are tuned while the car is on the dyno.
Phasis,
Ntrx is correct in saying chips r a waste of time and money
I will alaborate a little more.
On most cars there is very little dyno time used
Usually the only power gained is at the expense of loosing power somewhere else and to cut it short manufacturers spend millions of dollars setting up a car so that it is ideal as possible in all types of weather & conditions
While these chip merlins tweak a chip to gain a little top end power at the price of driveability.
It is not cheap (They charge like a bull)
Ntrx dyno time is used (But not enough of it)
Where unichip differs is it works around your own computers settings.
For example a wideband oxygen sensor is hooked up to the car
The car is put under load on a dyno and the unichip is used to tweak the original settings (And the good news is you can go back to the old settings if required or things don't work out).
Murat
Ntrx is correct in saying chips r a waste of time and money
I will alaborate a little more.
On most cars there is very little dyno time used
Usually the only power gained is at the expense of loosing power somewhere else and to cut it short manufacturers spend millions of dollars setting up a car so that it is ideal as possible in all types of weather & conditions
While these chip merlins tweak a chip to gain a little top end power at the price of driveability.
It is not cheap (They charge like a bull)
Ntrx dyno time is used (But not enough of it)
Where unichip differs is it works around your own computers settings.
For example a wideband oxygen sensor is hooked up to the car
The car is put under load on a dyno and the unichip is used to tweak the original settings (And the good news is you can go back to the old settings if required or things don't work out).
Murat
Andreas, I know a guy who knows the XU9J4 engine like the back of his hand, his name is Joe Grubbs and he is going to be working on my car for me. I trust him more than the local European Mechanics here, and he wont cost me an arm and a leg.
And I Was also wondering who makes a better air filter: Green Or K&N
And I Was also wondering who makes a better air filter: Green Or K&N
Doug here is a web site you might not already know about re Mi16 tuning:
<a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm" target="_blank">http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm</a>
Ntrx,
You r most likely correct that they don't even use a dyno most of the time.
And if your thinking (Has he heard of the interview with one of the culprits that could not back up his words i have)
I would not waste my money on any chip
What i would do though if i had enough mods like u guys r thinking about doing to your cars
I would go for something that works with your own computer like (unichip or like what i am going to use a turbo link auxillary computer from AVO)
It can control up to 4-6 xtra injectors and also can retard or advance your ignition (boost retard in may case)
The good thing is fuel is not just dumped in for instance like the turbo technics turbo setup that was worth and arm and a leg but was a poor attempt at turbo charging)
But i suppose i am going at it alone with no overheads like they would of had.
It was a nice setup exept for that single injector that just dumped fuel in and uses the factory inlet manifold distrubute fuel (It was not designed to do so)
It should have had an xtra bank of injectors at least for every inlet manifold runner (It is the hard way but the only way)
If u r to do something do it right the first time.
To cut it short they r using unichips on very expensive cars working in unison with very sophiticated management systems (I would look into that avenue if you have enough mods to make it worthwhile).
take it easy
Murat
You r most likely correct that they don't even use a dyno most of the time.
And if your thinking (Has he heard of the interview with one of the culprits that could not back up his words i have)
I would not waste my money on any chip
What i would do though if i had enough mods like u guys r thinking about doing to your cars
I would go for something that works with your own computer like (unichip or like what i am going to use a turbo link auxillary computer from AVO)
It can control up to 4-6 xtra injectors and also can retard or advance your ignition (boost retard in may case)
The good thing is fuel is not just dumped in for instance like the turbo technics turbo setup that was worth and arm and a leg but was a poor attempt at turbo charging)
But i suppose i am going at it alone with no overheads like they would of had.
It was a nice setup exept for that single injector that just dumped fuel in and uses the factory inlet manifold distrubute fuel (It was not designed to do so)
It should have had an xtra bank of injectors at least for every inlet manifold runner (It is the hard way but the only way)
If u r to do something do it right the first time.
To cut it short they r using unichips on very expensive cars working in unison with very sophiticated management systems (I would look into that avenue if you have enough mods to make it worthwhile).
take it easy
Murat
The only problem I have heard of with the Unichip (was stated on <a href="http://www.mi16conversion.com" target="_blank">www.mi16conversion.com</a> ) is that the unichip is only good on standard to mild tune engines cause it still uses standard idling and cold start programs on the original EFI hence highly worked motor, like running nasty cam profiles have a lot of trouble idling and running properly. If this is the case the only option is to dump the EFI and go complete aftermarket like a Haltech, Microtech, Wolf 3d or if you got big dollars a Motec (Hmmm the thing dreams are made of) then just run the risk of the EPA, and hope you don't have to go get it emissions tested.
i'm running the standard fuel reg, just have 300cc injectors now.
the OZ spec mi16 uses UK spec 205 gti injectors...what a joke!
not sure what it's like for the S16.
fitting larger injectors didnt give me anymore power, just meant it wouldn't ping.
dont get a powerchip, been there, done that.
not much lost as i bought it real cheap.
Andreas
the OZ spec mi16 uses UK spec 205 gti injectors...what a joke!
not sure what it's like for the S16.
fitting larger injectors didnt give me anymore power, just meant it wouldn't ping.
dont get a powerchip, been there, done that.
not much lost as i bought it real cheap.
Andreas
"aftermarket like a Haltech, Microtech, Wolf 3d or if you got big dollars a Motec (Hmmm the thing dreams are made of) then just run the risk of the EPA, and hope you don't have to go get it emissions tested."
The good thing about these is you can more than one map. Uploading a new map into a Haltech takes approx. 1 min. However, a well mapped std. car will pass emission tests easily. It's when you add a lumpy cam that the emissions go out the window. No amount of lean tuning can repair the overlap of a fat cam.
The good thing about these is you can more than one map. Uploading a new map into a Haltech takes approx. 1 min. However, a well mapped std. car will pass emission tests easily. It's when you add a lumpy cam that the emissions go out the window. No amount of lean tuning can repair the overlap of a fat cam.
yeah I know my cousin has a map like that for his rotary cause he has a errr hmmm, modified Cat Converter 
. But that doesn't stop the EPA from defecting the car cause it's got aftermarket computer. It's stupid but true just having a different computer means the car fails ADR, no ADR, No Rego.
. But that doesn't stop the EPA from defecting the car cause it's got aftermarket computer. It's stupid but true just having a different computer means the car fails ADR, no ADR, No Rego.Boys,
The good thing about forced induction is u can double or even triple the power of your engine without a cam change or any headwork.
For example my old pushrod turbo 265 4.3L hemi started out at 203hp and with 11psi went off the scale at 400hp+ at the dyno (There was a ton of bricks in the boot to keep it on the dyno) eek!
Nothing was done to the engine exept forged pistons & roller rockers.
The only way to add any decent power and to stay EPA legal is to use the staged injector methods i
have been preaching.
For instance you can put a higher output engine and all it's fuelinjection and gear in your car as long as it's newer than yours.
Also if u have a older carbi car (You can put almost any fuel injection in as it is considered a improvement over the carbi (It does not make sense think about it)You could modify your old carbi car say like my old charger to say for example 600hp use a crude and cheap open loop fuel injection with masive injectors and polute the air with more polution than the little carbi ever could.
Yet i can't for instance put a sophisticated computer like the motec m4 and run slightly bigger injectors but have the power to reduce pulse width to almost nothing at idle and at low loads (It would give me the power i want in a simple clean way(It would also be more enviromentally greener)
But it is the hard way or the highway now i have to around the bosch jetronic (I cant wate) tongue
There is always a way wink
Keep boosting eek!
Murat
The good thing about forced induction is u can double or even triple the power of your engine without a cam change or any headwork.
For example my old pushrod turbo 265 4.3L hemi started out at 203hp and with 11psi went off the scale at 400hp+ at the dyno (There was a ton of bricks in the boot to keep it on the dyno) eek!
Nothing was done to the engine exept forged pistons & roller rockers.
The only way to add any decent power and to stay EPA legal is to use the staged injector methods i
have been preaching.
For instance you can put a higher output engine and all it's fuelinjection and gear in your car as long as it's newer than yours.
Also if u have a older carbi car (You can put almost any fuel injection in as it is considered a improvement over the carbi (It does not make sense think about it)You could modify your old carbi car say like my old charger to say for example 600hp use a crude and cheap open loop fuel injection with masive injectors and polute the air with more polution than the little carbi ever could.
Yet i can't for instance put a sophisticated computer like the motec m4 and run slightly bigger injectors but have the power to reduce pulse width to almost nothing at idle and at low loads (It would give me the power i want in a simple clean way(It would also be more enviromentally greener)
But it is the hard way or the highway now i have to around the bosch jetronic (I cant wate) tongue
There is always a way wink
Keep boosting eek!
Murat