ID-19 clutch swivel

S

skp

Active member
Fellow Frogger
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Messages
338
Location
Perth, Western Australia
Greetings,
Would anyone have an early 60's clutch swivel? Also the bracket bolted to the firewall just above the brake valve, that takes the rear end of the clutch cable.

IMG_0203.jpeg
 
Sorry to say, that does not look like the clutch cable arrangement I recall. I suspect it is a home grown version. The double nutted pivot does not ring any bells here either.
There were several iterations of the assembly, all of them somewhat Heath Robinson in execution. The angle of turn required of the cable at the end does not look well designed. No doubt others with more current knowledge and memory will contribute. You may be more successful with another entire assembly. The brown coloured push rod with the socket joint in the middle does look like the real thing.
 
The more I look at this pic the more it looks unlike my Id's systems. I recall the cable going to a lever that attached to the jointed pushrod, BUT the lever was pivoted differently and the cable itself was more across or above the top of the fabricated black painted structures you have here. I recall the cable pulling from about the position of the big unused bracket cast into the bell housing near the red text. That meant the cable was longer and has a smoother easier run. The unused bolt doing nothing matching the current lock nutted one may have been the original pivot point.

There was certainly no big cut away on the actuating arm as shown above IIRC.

The current arrangement with the cable at a sharp angle also offers no way for cable adjustment.

The more I think about it the more I think the black painted fabrication is a local non genuine effort.

I also note the reaction screw that engages the nose of the starter motor on the side of the bell housing is not engaged or secured by the lock nut. The reaction screw on the top of the bellhousing visible behind the curved cut away section of the long arm is the second reaction/location screw.

I am surprised there has been no contribution/correction from M. Double Chevron yet.
 
Skp, what year is your car?

Here a photo of my 64 box and clutch arrangement - looks like the bolts are all in the same location but your gearbox housing misses the clutch cable lug on the left…

15DEFC80-56D8-4565-84F9-3122A61EF6CA.jpeg
 
Well I am pleased to see Sven's picture. Puts my old brain to rest. Now it comes back, the big lug was threaded and slotted to allow adjustment of the cable. Now the mystery in the picture that SKP supplied..... maybe it was originally a DS bell housing ( or gearbox, or both ) that someone has installed in an Id and had to construct a manual clutching mechanism.
 
Would Citroen really have had variations on the housings? Between ID or DS? Or BVH and BVM? I always thought the gearboxes are all interchangeable…. Always learning…
 
bleudanube said:
Would Citroen really have had variations on the housings? Between ID or DS? Or BVH and BVM? I always thought the gearboxes are all interchangeable…. Always learning…
Click to expand...
Sven,
Nothing would surprise me. Remember the DS BVH has a hydraulic slave cylinder to operate the clutch, so the big threaded and slotted boss would not have been needed as there is no clutch cable. Also IIRC the big boss is the bolt on point for the centrifugal regulator, the device that controls the speed of clutch operation. As the original picture HAS that cast in lump still with a north/south bolt hole I surmise that it had been for that purpose. Citroen do strange things. The bell housings for air conditioned DS23s were different to accommodate the compressor bracketry. Crankshafts were different between manual and automatic cars .. so anything is possible. Consider the variations even to simple things like bump stops that were different between saloons and breaks. Sensible to have made them ALL the bigger Safari versions, but no !.

My memory of that clutch cable stuff is close to 50 years old, so not too bad for an old dog.

I have never eyeballed a left hand drive version that would also be entirely different in layout. In the mid 60s the local agent in Brisbane DID convert a LHD Id for local RHD use. A mammoth job when the brake system piping is considered. That car was a second nose and a mid brown colour. Maybe the gearbox in the original posted picture was in a LHD car.

Either way, the smooth cable run and better angles in Sven's version must be kinder to the workings.

I do hope more agile minds with better memories and dirtier fingernails reply.
 
bleudanube said:
Would Citroen really have had variations on the housings? Between ID or DS? Or BVH and BVM? I always thought the gearboxes are all interchangeable…. Always learning…
Click to expand...
Indeed they did.
Skp's shows the early attempt at RHD, where the required bosses were in the LHD position, so they fabricated a mirror version.
Certainly the rough cut out section is because of the boss for the 7 piston pump, as found on DS19 and optional (with power steering) on the ID19 after Sept '62. So the pic shows pre '62 RHD clutch setup, with after '62 box.
It is possible that this came from Aussie assembly during the introduction of the second front, where they may have had some left over components.
More likely it's a later gearbox replacement.

Sven's pic shows the second version, and you can see that they were then casting a lug for RHD cable outer end, as well as the 7 piston pump mount. This casting would also have the LHD cable lug, but it would not be machined (faced and threaded, and slotted).

I have all the parts available for Skp, in both versions...... but we should confirm the year of his car, as i suspect he should be looking for the later one, not the one he showed.
Maybe he has an early box that does not have the RHD cable lug.
 
There !!! I just knew someone would have the answers. I had forgotten about the mounting for the 7 piston pump.
So with any luck skp's problem can be solved.
I would still seek confirmation about the pedal end of the clutch cable. From memory there is a deep dished and slotted metal retainer that locates the outer sleeve. easily dropped and not easily found. Skp does ask about the pedal bracket on the firewall.
 
Yes, I understood that the car they are restoring is second front, so it should have a setup similar to Sven's.
We need to confirm exactly what he has.
 
Something doesn't quite ring true still. SKP mentions the "brake valve"... I wonder is he referring to the mushroom button "brake valve" fitted to '63 and later second nose IDs or the low square brake pedalo power brake fitted to local "62 first nose cars, or the emergency brake valve at the end of the master cylinder of "61 cars with pendant brake pedals and ( cable ) accelerator pedals.

So as a second front car the "experimental" black set up in the first picture should have been long gone.
 
SKP you have had a wealth of information gathered for you there. What do you think?
 
I was told it is a '63...... that's second front, full pressure brake valve without trolley, but with mushroom button, and the second clutch bellcrank setup the same as Sven's.

Unless it's French supplied ..... instead of Aus. I think the French ID19 kept a pendant brake pedal, while the Aussie one got the mushroom.
 
Buttercup said:
Unless it's French supplied ..... instead of Aus. I think the French ID19 kept a pendant brake pedal, while the Aussie one got the mushroom.
Click to expand...
I had a '63 ID- US market, built in France- with the pendant pedal. IIRC, everything ID French or Belgian built save for the wagons came with that.
 
Sorry for the long delay…. Other jobs in the workshop got in the way.
The car is a ‘63 RHD Chapron with power steering, but manual gearbox.
This is an abandoned restoration (paint fell off!!) from Gayndah.
Not all the bits I have been given seem to be a perfect match…

The clutch swivel in the photo is a Citroen original, from the ‘62 model for Oz (at least) , same as my own first car. There were a few changes around this time, so things are not Definitive…

The Chapron body is in great shape, but was stripped thoroughly. I suspect that some of its parts became mixed with other projects in Gayndah. The gearbox must support the 7 cylinder hydraulic pump ( for power steering models) so the lug is correct. There is no clutch swivel with the parts, and the latter toggle does not do service, as it would distort the cable if it were to be coming through the lug.
This gearbox casting requires the ‘62 model swivel …. OR One of the short lived swivels that had the HIGH position cable toggle. These were only produced for a very short period before the casting was modified to take the latter unit common on all later D’s.

The owner has located someone in the Netherlands who is manufacturing one of the high toggle units.
If not, I’ll be back!
skp
 
How about I post the one I have prepared for you.......
and you fit it, and tell me how many mm too low or high it is......
and I'll prepare another to exactly match your spec. I can very easily make it to any height you want.

I still reckon this one is right.
20211203_113625.jpg
 
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Bob, That would be great! This is indeed the asymmetrical unit that it requires.
i may be in need of some more parts when I get the body to the workshop..
S. Pekin
38C Randell Lane
Perth WA 6000.

thanks!
 
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