I have a spare pump & one on a high mileage wreck. Do the steel body pumps look any different visually?
Hydraulic Pump exploration
- Thread starter pottsy
- Start date
I have a spare pump & one on a high mileage wreck. Do the steel body pumps look any different visually?
There's a small amount of the pump body accessible just in front of the rolled up edge of the cover.
and before the inside face of the mounting plate.You could, I imagine, try it with a magnet or at least a centre punch to test the hardness.
Cheers, Pottsy
OK
Having spent some time researching the availability of metric o-rings I've almost got it sussed.
Most of the sizes are available and seem to do the job quite well on a cursory trial fit.
The fly in the ointment is the one that seals the base of the cylinder into the pump body. This is quoted as 18.7 x 1.9 and by mistake I first of all got 19mm ones. Obviously too large, so I went with some 18mm ones.
These are the exact diameter of the holes in the pump body, but fitting them seems to be problematical. I'll need to take some pictures to clearly describe the issue, but I'll try to describe it anyway. With the new o-ring fitted on the "step" of the cylinder, it pokes out too far to be a sliding fit into the pump body.
I had a bright thought to try tapering a piece of plastic tubing (by broaching one end with a tapered wad punch the right size) to form a sort of fitting cone, and while this seems fine in theory, keeping the cylinder aligned so that the o-ring doesn't slip off one side is almost impossible. I'm being very wary of pushing and pressing too much as the sharp edges everywhere will gleefully slice the excess nitrile off and leave me with dodgy sealing at best. Also being very careful not to press in any way on the lapped valve seat of the cylinder (and definitely don't want to use any kind of guide in the centre of the cylinder as this may scratch the walls and negate all this good work).
So how do you gurus do it?
I have a plan B. The body so kindly provided by David S just happens to still have the cylinder seals still in situ, so as long as they pass a close scrute I can probably get away with using them. It would be with reluctance, but a gamble worth taking I suspect. Still doesn't solve the problem though.
The main issue seems to be that the "real" rings are nominally 1.9mm in cross section and that extra 0.1mm is critical in this application. Not sure what the solution is.
Another thought is to cushion the cylinder with a plastic disc and use the drill stand to apply very gentle pressure square on to the pump body while poking the bulging bits of rubber in all the way around with a wooden or plastic poky thing (technical term, sorry)
This sounds more brutal than it would actually be, but with enough rubber grease around it the scheme may work.
So once again, keen to hear how you guys have managed this in the past. Pictures of the above mentioned will follow when I can approach it calmly and rationally.
Cheers for now, Pottsy
Having spent some time researching the availability of metric o-rings I've almost got it sussed.
Most of the sizes are available and seem to do the job quite well on a cursory trial fit.
The fly in the ointment is the one that seals the base of the cylinder into the pump body. This is quoted as 18.7 x 1.9 and by mistake I first of all got 19mm ones. Obviously too large, so I went with some 18mm ones.
These are the exact diameter of the holes in the pump body, but fitting them seems to be problematical. I'll need to take some pictures to clearly describe the issue, but I'll try to describe it anyway. With the new o-ring fitted on the "step" of the cylinder, it pokes out too far to be a sliding fit into the pump body.
I had a bright thought to try tapering a piece of plastic tubing (by broaching one end with a tapered wad punch the right size) to form a sort of fitting cone, and while this seems fine in theory, keeping the cylinder aligned so that the o-ring doesn't slip off one side is almost impossible. I'm being very wary of pushing and pressing too much as the sharp edges everywhere will gleefully slice the excess nitrile off and leave me with dodgy sealing at best. Also being very careful not to press in any way on the lapped valve seat of the cylinder (and definitely don't want to use any kind of guide in the centre of the cylinder as this may scratch the walls and negate all this good work).
So how do you gurus do it?
I have a plan B. The body so kindly provided by David S just happens to still have the cylinder seals still in situ, so as long as they pass a close scrute I can probably get away with using them. It would be with reluctance, but a gamble worth taking I suspect. Still doesn't solve the problem though.
The main issue seems to be that the "real" rings are nominally 1.9mm in cross section and that extra 0.1mm is critical in this application. Not sure what the solution is.
Another thought is to cushion the cylinder with a plastic disc and use the drill stand to apply very gentle pressure square on to the pump body while poking the bulging bits of rubber in all the way around with a wooden or plastic poky thing (technical term, sorry)
This sounds more brutal than it would actually be, but with enough rubber grease around it the scheme may work.
So once again, keen to hear how you guys have managed this in the past. Pictures of the above mentioned will follow when I can approach it calmly and rationally.
Cheers for now, Pottsy
Call me impatient but the pump on Moby is leaking and I want to drive the old bugger.
I've gone with plan B above and reassembled the pump with almost all new seals and an excellent uncracked pump body (Thanks again David). I'll clean and paint it later today and let it dry tomorrow while I'm punting the Mini around a paddock. ("All serious hydraulic work and no Mini fun makes Pottsy grumpy" to coin a paraphrase)
I thought I'd post some photos of the items mentioned above. The image titles should be explanatory.
I also have a Plan C. I've obtained a CX 7 cylinder pump and removed the cover to check its condition. Looks good and clean so with a new cover seal and shaft seal it should be usable. I've also cobbled together an adaptor pipe to take the side output of the CX pump around to the front entering pipe on the D. The only other change needed appears to be enlarging the mounting hole on the bottom of the pump to 8mm from 7mm.
Photos below also show the "bowl" I carved in a lump of timber to evenly press the cover back on.
Despite what Spike Milligan said - "We've got nothing planned so nothing can go wrong!" - it's good to have a couple of alternatives in case of pears becoming the new round.
Here's the photos over which you can slaver, drool, bicker or yawn, as the mood takes you.
Cheers, Pottsy
I've gone with plan B above and reassembled the pump with almost all new seals and an excellent uncracked pump body (Thanks again David). I'll clean and paint it later today and let it dry tomorrow while I'm punting the Mini around a paddock. ("All serious hydraulic work and no Mini fun makes Pottsy grumpy" to coin a paraphrase)
I thought I'd post some photos of the items mentioned above. The image titles should be explanatory.
I also have a Plan C. I've obtained a CX 7 cylinder pump and removed the cover to check its condition. Looks good and clean so with a new cover seal and shaft seal it should be usable. I've also cobbled together an adaptor pipe to take the side output of the CX pump around to the front entering pipe on the D. The only other change needed appears to be enlarging the mounting hole on the bottom of the pump to 8mm from 7mm.
Photos below also show the "bowl" I carved in a lump of timber to evenly press the cover back on.
Despite what Spike Milligan said - "We've got nothing planned so nothing can go wrong!" - it's good to have a couple of alternatives in case of pears becoming the new round.
Here's the photos over which you can slaver, drool, bicker or yawn, as the mood takes you.
Cheers, Pottsy
Attachments
I always use 19 x 2mm O-rings. Yes you have to shove the cylinder into the body with some force but when lubricated with hydraulic fluid they will snap into place with a satisfying click. Use a hollow tube of some sort to spare your thumb.
Also you can use AN-018 O-rings. They are a somewhat looser fit than the 19 x 2 but by all accounts still seem to seal OK.
Unless somehow you have an aftermarket body made by JBM, then you must use the AN-018 O-rings since the JBM bodies were designed to use USA standard O-rings.
Cheers,
John T.
Also you can use AN-018 O-rings. They are a somewhat looser fit than the 19 x 2 but by all accounts still seem to seal OK.
Unless somehow you have an aftermarket body made by JBM, then you must use the AN-018 O-rings since the JBM bodies were designed to use USA standard O-rings.
Cheers,
John T.
John. Pretty sure both the cracked and the replacement are genuine Citroen as they both have (had before cleaning) the Citroen chevrons and a meaningless (to me) number painted on them.
Interesting that you use the 19mm ones. I can't get them to sit evenly in the hole without a "kink" happening which is why I went with the 18mm.
I guess I'll try the more forceful method once I dismantle the pump that's currently powering Moby Dick.
Thanks. Pottsy
Interesting that you use the 19mm ones. I can't get them to sit evenly in the hole without a "kink" happening which is why I went with the 18mm.
I guess I'll try the more forceful method once I dismantle the pump that's currently powering Moby Dick.
Thanks. Pottsy
There is a D Special at Narooma that successfully uses a BX pump (not 16v). Gets up quick too. No pics sorry.
The BX pump must be from an 8v as the 16v rotate opposite direction like a 12v V6 XM.
The BX pump must be from an 8v as the 16v rotate opposite direction like a 12v V6 XM.
Hi Pottsy and others,
There is a set of seals on leboncoin for 32 euros. Post pack would be about 8 or 10 euros.
Kit joint pompe HP citroen DS SM Equipement Auto Val-de-Marne - leboncoin.fr
cheers leconte
There is a set of seals on leboncoin for 32 euros. Post pack would be about 8 or 10 euros.
Kit joint pompe HP citroen DS SM Equipement Auto Val-de-Marne - leboncoin.fr
cheers leconte
The satisfaction of stepping back from a job well done and observing a piece of machinery working the way it's supposed to cannot be overstated.
Today saw Moby Dick have his heart transplant at last. While it may be temporary in that I may do a full replacement job on the original pump once I dissect it, the resealed and re-bodied pump certainly looks the goods in it's shiny coat of Brunswick Green and seems to be doing exactly what it's there for without (so far) any signs of stress or leakage.
It's certainly quieter than the one I've pulled out, not quite the pussy cat purr I was hoping for, but a subdued growl more of a small tiger rather than the full-on grumble exhibited of late.
So thanks for all the input and especial thanks to David S for supplying the replacement body.
Oh, and Leconte, thanks for the Leboncoin link. However, I've just worked out what my new seals cost for a set: would you believe $13.46 plus a whiff of petrol to get over to Thomastown.
I call that a win, a score and a job well done.
Hope it stays that way!
Today saw Moby Dick have his heart transplant at last. While it may be temporary in that I may do a full replacement job on the original pump once I dissect it, the resealed and re-bodied pump certainly looks the goods in it's shiny coat of Brunswick Green and seems to be doing exactly what it's there for without (so far) any signs of stress or leakage.
It's certainly quieter than the one I've pulled out, not quite the pussy cat purr I was hoping for, but a subdued growl more of a small tiger rather than the full-on grumble exhibited of late.
So thanks for all the input and especial thanks to David S for supplying the replacement body.
Oh, and Leconte, thanks for the Leboncoin link. However, I've just worked out what my new seals cost for a set: would you believe $13.46 plus a whiff of petrol to get over to Thomastown.
I call that a win, a score and a job well done.
Hope it stays that way!
Attachments
Spiffy
I've now stripped the original pump and it seems to have done a bit of work. Not surprising really. It was certainly noisy but still pumping happily. There were definite signs of weepage around the front bearing and the centre seal is worn flat on its outside surface.
The good news is that the pump body is uncracked and all the pistons and cylinders appear to be a smooth and snug fit together.
The bad news is that there was a tiny bit of sideways movement in the needle roller bearing. The main bearing seems OK, especially now I've dismantled cleaned and re-lubricated it, but if I can source a replacement I will anyway as I want this pump to be a long term option.
The "acorn" also seemed to have a bit of sideways movement but the shaft, while shiny, appears unworn, to my micrometer at least. Even if it's worn, there's not a lot I can do about it without sacrificing the guts of another pump, a luxury I don't have.
The main shaft also seems to be hard chromed and merely scuffed suggesting that any wear is in the needles themselves.
I've been doing a fair bit of research and discussion with bearing suppliers and here's the fruits so far for the edification and delight of all.
The main bearing is an SKF 431846A which is 12mm shaft, 50mm OD and 16mm width. Seems to be a special build for Citroen by SKF France as the largest 12mm shaft bearing anyone seems to list is 42mm OD. Searching continues.
The needle roller is a Nadella DL2216 which is 22mm shaft diameter, 28mm OD and 16mm length. This appears to be readily available as an HK222816 for under $10 a throw. Time will tell if this is a suitable replacement or not, but it's worth investing in one to see. I've yet to see how many rollers the potential replacement has, but the Nadella item is chock full of needle roller goodness so anything with fewer rollers and spacers in between may not be the right kind of replacement. We shall see.
So there we stand at present. I now need to create a suitable extractor for the needle roller bearing (as mentioned in a different thread) but before I can start on that I need to rebuild the home made faceplate on my aging lathe. (A 1950's Zyto)
It just never stops!
Cheers, Pottsy.
The good news is that the pump body is uncracked and all the pistons and cylinders appear to be a smooth and snug fit together.
The bad news is that there was a tiny bit of sideways movement in the needle roller bearing. The main bearing seems OK, especially now I've dismantled cleaned and re-lubricated it, but if I can source a replacement I will anyway as I want this pump to be a long term option.
The "acorn" also seemed to have a bit of sideways movement but the shaft, while shiny, appears unworn, to my micrometer at least. Even if it's worn, there's not a lot I can do about it without sacrificing the guts of another pump, a luxury I don't have.
The main shaft also seems to be hard chromed and merely scuffed suggesting that any wear is in the needles themselves.
I've been doing a fair bit of research and discussion with bearing suppliers and here's the fruits so far for the edification and delight of all.
The main bearing is an SKF 431846A which is 12mm shaft, 50mm OD and 16mm width. Seems to be a special build for Citroen by SKF France as the largest 12mm shaft bearing anyone seems to list is 42mm OD. Searching continues.
The needle roller is a Nadella DL2216 which is 22mm shaft diameter, 28mm OD and 16mm length. This appears to be readily available as an HK222816 for under $10 a throw. Time will tell if this is a suitable replacement or not, but it's worth investing in one to see. I've yet to see how many rollers the potential replacement has, but the Nadella item is chock full of needle roller goodness so anything with fewer rollers and spacers in between may not be the right kind of replacement. We shall see.
So there we stand at present. I now need to create a suitable extractor for the needle roller bearing (as mentioned in a different thread) but before I can start on that I need to rebuild the home made faceplate on my aging lathe. (A 1950's Zyto)
It just never stops!
Cheers, Pottsy.
If the main bearing is not salvageable and you are handy with a lathe, you can replace the bearing with a 66/22 bearing (22x50x14). Then you make a "hat" shaped spacer having a 2mm thick brim with a 22mm O.D. post bored to 12mm. The hat spacer is pressed or set with locktite into the bearing. The brim is polished to form the seat for the seal. A 2mm thick spacer 50mm OD is then put into the pump bore to bring everything to the right location.
Cheers,
John T.
Cheers,
John T.
Thanks John. A true engineering solution if the bearing is no longer available. Interestingly the main bearing can be easily dismantled and inspected for wear. A nice piece of design.
The Citroen documentation I've read specifies always replacing the front bearing, but I can't find anything wrong with this one, or the one in the spare I recently re-sealed.
I may well end up just re-greasing and re-using this unless I can find the right ones. I'm not that handy with a lathe yet, still learning how to work it properly.
One of the many things I've promised myself in retirement is to update the lathe to a new unit one day, but like any expensive toy it has to wait in line.
The bearing places I've contacted seem confident of finding replacements so I'll let them run free and see what eventuates.
Thanks, Pottsy
The Citroen documentation I've read specifies always replacing the front bearing, but I can't find anything wrong with this one, or the one in the spare I recently re-sealed.
I may well end up just re-greasing and re-using this unless I can find the right ones. I'm not that handy with a lathe yet, still learning how to work it properly.
One of the many things I've promised myself in retirement is to update the lathe to a new unit one day, but like any expensive toy it has to wait in line.
The bearing places I've contacted seem confident of finding replacements so I'll let them run free and see what eventuates.
Thanks, Pottsy
You have three options to repair this item for a long life
1. have an aircraft welder do the cracks. One of the best is located in Williamstown Victoria.
2. Use a two part aluminium based epoxy
3. Machine bore oversize and fit stainless sleeves and machine finish of bore and use epoxy on cracks and heat shrink sleeves into place.
1. have an aircraft welder do the cracks. One of the best is located in Williamstown Victoria.
2. Use a two part aluminium based epoxy
3. Machine bore oversize and fit stainless sleeves and machine finish of bore and use epoxy on cracks and heat shrink sleeves into place.
The correct ball roller bearing at the front is now available from Franzose and I suspect they didn't buy it off the shelf. I'd always understood the commonly available standard bearings were too narrow to do the job without adding some kind of spacer. If you really want to pursue it, you have to ensure any other bearing you use has a flat surface on the inner portion for the bronze seal.
I know it might be against your need to fiddle, but if you have a choice of pumps and one is particularly good, use it as your base and retain any bearings that are OK. Citroen used many parts of excellent quality, so 'good used' is often a better choice over aftermarket or repro.
There are generic blind bearing pullers you could use and also inexpensive eBay slide hammer / puller kits that might suit the task.
I know it might be against your need to fiddle, but if you have a choice of pumps and one is particularly good, use it as your base and retain any bearings that are OK. Citroen used many parts of excellent quality, so 'good used' is often a better choice over aftermarket or repro.
There are generic blind bearing pullers you could use and also inexpensive eBay slide hammer / puller kits that might suit the task.
These are practical thoughts and they might be worth considering if the part could not easily be replaced. New steel bodies are quite inexpensive and a good CX pump can even be cannibalised if need be. Also, it's likely that the old part has fatigue problems at some other points, possibly making a repair a futile exercise.
Just a thought.
The application of hi-tech plastics to the field of bearings is getting seriously interesting.
We had the Rep in the other day for some bearing advice and although I didn't specifically ask about replacement of the needle roller bearing of the high pressure pump, it crossed my mind. If sizes and chemical analysis is OK these materials can be machined for final fits.
Trawling through their website and I stumbled on this.
igus® High-pressure washer
May be worth exploring or certainly a phone call.
SF
The application of hi-tech plastics to the field of bearings is getting seriously interesting.
We had the Rep in the other day for some bearing advice and although I didn't specifically ask about replacement of the needle roller bearing of the high pressure pump, it crossed my mind. If sizes and chemical analysis is OK these materials can be machined for final fits.
Trawling through their website and I stumbled on this.
igus® High-pressure washer
May be worth exploring or certainly a phone call.
SF