Hydractive 2 Advantages/Disadvantages?

[STALLED]

Well Ive been doing some more research.....:joker:

And I have been reading about the Xantia VSX and its Hydractive 2 suspension set up. I know the SX has the system which is basically identical to that found on the BX, but the VSX's system seems a tad more complex with the extra 2 spheres/accumulators which regulate the pressure and flow to the other spheres which control the suspension on each wheel. On top of this, there is all that electronics which control this other system - the 7 sensors and the ECU's. It sure sounds a more complex system?

So this has had me pondering........Is there really much difference between a VSX Hydractive 2 setup and a normal set up in the SX in the driving department?

Does much go wrong electronically with this system, I have heard tales of the suspesnion resorting to "hard" mode if a fault is detected and the car not wanting to go back into "comfort" mode?

The only real thing at this stage which is putting me off it at this stage it the "anti sink" valves, not so much what might go wrong with them ( dont worry, not much does apparently, they dont move much and they are well made due to the fact that they have to regulate so much pressure) but the fact that the car doesnt sink to the ground like a "proper" Citroen should. Im probably gonna get flamed for saying this but I just like the whole idea of my car sinking to the ground once I have parked it - I am more than willing to trade this off if there is a somewhat increased amount of driving pleasure in the handling and ride department?

I am asking this question as now due to the purchase of a SX Xantia falling though, I am now faced with the options of possibly purchasing a VSX, however I am still looking for SX models.

Anyways, thanks heaps and have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Stalled

 

[Mandrake]

Well Ive been doing some more research.....:joker:

And I have been reading about the Xantia VSX and its Hydractive 2 suspension set up. I know the SX has the system which is basically identical to that found on the BX, but the VSX's system seems a tad more complex with the extra 2 spheres/accumulators which regulate the pressure and flow to the other spheres which control the suspension on each wheel. On top of this, there is all that electronics which control this other system - the 7 sensors and the ECU's. It sure sounds a more complex system?

Yes, it is definately more complex in terms of more things to go wrong, and can be a lot more difficult to diagnose if something does go wrong, especially when you're new to HA2, as I was when I got mine. (Previously I was fairly experienced with plain hydropneumatic and I still found it a bit of a learning curve)

The usual symptoms of a problem unique to Hydractive 2 is a ride that goes hard/harsh either all the time or more often than it should.

So this has had me pondering........Is there really much difference between a VSX Hydractive 2 setup and a normal set up in the SX in the driving department?

Yes! Basically the ride is much softer and more stable in the straight line or gentle curve conditon, but at the same time it will corner better with less roll, albeit with firmer ride around tight corners.

In the "sport" mode there is hardly any body roll around all but the tightest corners. (Limited to about 3 degrees apparently, compare that to 7 or 8 degrees for a typical saloon car, and half a degree for an Activa)

During hard braking the suspension firms up as well reducing nose dive to a minium.

There is definately a tangible improvement in both ride and handling when the system is working properly, but I guess it is up to the individual to decide whether it warrants the extra complexity and two extra spheres...

Does much go wrong electronically with this system, I have heard tales of the suspesnion resorting to "hard" mode if a fault is detected and the car not wanting to go back into "comfort" mode?

I can only give the experience of my particular car of course, but the computer itself seems to be pretty reliable and not a source of problems, and also I've had no problems with the sensors.

What is most likely to give you problems is - the centre spheres failing and the owner before you not noticing it, mine came with the rear centre sphere punctured for example, effectively putting the rear suspension in hard mode all the time.

Another problem I have had is with the hydractive valves themselves not reliably switching from hard->soft mode, sometimes despite being commanded by the computer to go to the soft mode after taking a corner (for example) the back will stay in the hard mode for 30+ seconds.

I'm pretty sure that I've figured out this problem - there is something wrong with the needle valves in the solenoids such that in the "on" mode the needle is not sealing on the overflow seat properly causing a pressure drop on the line that operates the plunger that actually switches modes.

Most likely it is some grit trapped in the seat, so I will be taking the valves out and cleaning them out. I should point out that my car came with red ATF of some kind in the hydraulic system, and when drained it had a lot of grit in it, so that could easily be the cause of the problem with the needle valves and therefore not really the fault of the car that someone put the wrong oil in it.

The biggest problem of all with the suspension in my car causing harsh ride (and causing me to blame the hydractive system initially) seems to be bad strut wear, and that is not specifically a HA2 problem, it could happen on any Xantia.

The only real thing at this stage which is putting me off it at this stage it the "anti sink" valves, not so much what might go wrong with them ( dont worry, not much does apparently, they dont move much and they are well made due to the fact that they have to regulate so much pressure) but the fact that the car doesnt sink to the ground like a "proper" Citroen should. Im probably gonna get flamed for saying this but I just like the whole idea of my car sinking to the ground once I have parked it - I am more than willing to trade this off if there is a somewhat increased amount of driving pleasure in the handling and ride department?

Having owned earlier Citroen's as well, such as a GS, the number one thing that always annoyed me WAS the car going down, and the long time for it to lift up again, so I'm delighted with anti-sink valves, I just wish they invented them years ago

Bear in mind that SX vs VSX has nothing to do with whether you get anti-sink valves or not. Basically models before mid 1994 (approx) don't have anti-sink, and models from mid 1994 onwards do have anti-sink.

So the only way that you're ever going to get a Xantia without anti-sink is to get a 1993, and I wouldn't recommend that due to other reasons.

My mum got a 1993 TD SX recently which has no anti-sink and it goes down fully in only an hour or so....and you constantly have to be aware of where you park, if you park with the bumper over a railing for example expect to find a squashed bumper when you come back. On the other hand I dont have to worry about that sort of thing on mine.

After 8 hours at work mine has not dropped visibly at all, and overnight it drops about an inch at each end.

Personal opinion I guess

Regards,
Simon

 

[Trixie]

Thinking back ten years to test drives and some 5 years ago when I had a good run in a VSX, I don't recall a huge difference in ride between SX and VSX. There is certainly less roll, but the overall feel and grip levels didn't strike me as vastly different. Then again tyres were wider and lower profile also which accounts for some of the difference.

Buying an 8-10 year old car, I'd say go for condition and history rather than whether its Hydractive or not.

 

[STALLED]

Ahh thanks heaps Mandrake and Trixie!

Yeah, to be honest, I just want to get the best possible car which I can afford at this stage. Condition and service history is vital and it does seem like its certainly worth paying a extra grand for a car which has a lower mileage and which has been taken well care of as there is certainly less chance of it catching up with you in the future!

I could be wrong here, when I was alot younger and not into French cars at all, I remember waiting at the traffic lights with my parents and watching a Xantia, which from memory looked like a VSX (alloys) - The car at the rear was slowly adjusting its self, going up and down? Is this a Hydractive trait or do all Xantias do this?

Maybe it was a dodgy car?:roflmao:

Mandrake, I never knew that post '94 cars did have a Anti sink valve? Wow, you certainly learn a stack on AF.

It does sound like an very interesting set up though, ill have to certainly consider it?

Cheers

Stalled

 

[DoubleChevron]

That's about the only negative I can think of about VSX's ... the way the arse of the car jumps up & down at traffic lights.

Personally I much prefer the VSX, however Trixie is most certainly right, buy the best car you can find for the price regardless of it's spec.

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[Mandrake]

Ahh thanks heaps Mandrake and Trixie!

Yeah, to be honest, I just want to get the best possible car which I can afford at this stage. Condition and service history is vital and it does seem like its certainly worth paying a extra grand for a car which has a lower mileage and which has been taken well care of as there is certainly less chance of it catching up with you in the future!

Yeah, definately place more emphasis on the condition of the car and the service history rather than whether it has Hydractive 2 or not. I specifically went looking for a HA2 model mainly because the technology behind it piqued my interest (I'm a gadget person ) and I was lucky that out of the cars on offer that the only one with HA2 also happened to be the one in the best condition in terms of body, interior, and mechanics etc...(basically it looks new, considering its a 1997)

Bear in mind though that the suspension is not the only difference between SX and VSX - depending on the year there are a number of other differences including -

VSX - airbag(s), ABS as standard, electric seats, automatic parking mirror, outside temp guage, oil temp guage, steering wheel radio controls as standard, 15" alloy wheels as standard.

SX - none of the above except ABS as a (rare) option, steering wheel radio controls optional, and 14" steel rims standard with 15" alloys as an option. (My Dad's SX came with alloys)

I could be wrong here, when I was alot younger and not into French cars at all, I remember waiting at the traffic lights with my parents and watching a Xantia, which from memory looked like a VSX (alloys) - The car at the rear was slowly adjusting its self, going up and down? Is this a Hydractive trait or do all Xantias do this?

Thats a trait of any Citroen with hydropneumatic's, to a greater or lesser degree. Even my GS used to do it if you braked hard at the lights and then didn't ease off the brakes as you stopped.

When you apply the foot brake while stationary the rear trailing arms can't move freely because it requires a change in wheelbase length for it to move, which can't happen when the wheels are all locked.

If you brake hard the rear height may be too high at the point you stop due to nose dive and the brake will hold it too high. After a few seconds the height corrector will try to let the height down but it has to release quite a bit of pressure before it will overcome the grip of the brakes, depending on how hard you're pressing the brakes. Then it will drop too low and the process will repeat in reverse.

You can do this on purpose too by applying the brakes extra hard if you like messing with the mind of the driver behind you as your car pops up like a cork and drops like a stone. :roflmao: :roflmao:

The VSX is a bit more prone to doing this than the SX simply because the rear suspension (in the soft mode) has both softer springing and softer damping, but an SX with good rear spheres will still sometimes do it.

Also automatic's are more prone to doing this than manuals because you have to brake against the automatic pulling you forward, which prevents you easing off the brakes gently as you come to a rest.

If this trait annoys you, in a manual just try to ease progressively off the brakes as you come to a final stop so that at the point you stop the brakes are on very lightly and it will allow the height to equalize. On an automatic try shifting it to neutral just as you're coming to a stop and do the same thing, or alternatively when you do stop put the hand brake on and let the foot brake off. That way if a height correction needs to be made it will make a subtle change then stabilize.

Just one of those Citroen things that becomes second nature, like waiting for the car to rise before driving off.....

Regards,
Simon

 

[Alan S]

I can't speak of comparisons because I own the only Xantia in probably 100 mile radius, but I must admit, I have some reservations as to whether mine is soft enough in the front and if it's normal or not. It seems rock hard but it still rides well, but when it comes to handling it's equal to the BX 16V and I recently had a moment when some old chook in a Ford Festy was driving towards me, locked the jaw, knuckles turn white on the steering wheel and she politely turned straight across in front of me when I was around 4 car lengths away and doing a good 60 kph!! I stood on the brakes hard and God bless ABS and the hydractive suspension as the car stopped in a dead straight line and without the assend sitting up in the clouds thereby giving me good bite on all 4 wheels.
I run cheapy tyres and tend to chuck it around fairly hard and it's a real fun machine the way the tyres let go steadily and it is so easily controlled in a 4 wheel drift feathering the throttle and occasionally backing off to control it and frightens the shit out of some of the ricers around here when this old fart starts giving them the occasional driving lesson.:roflmao: :roflmao:
So I can say as far as I'm concerned, the VSX has an attraction if for nothing else but being very predictable in its handling.



Alan S

 

[Mandrake]

I can't speak of comparisons because I own the only Xantia in probably 100 mile radius, but I must admit, I have some reservations as to whether mine is soft enough in the front and if it's normal or not. It seems rock hard but it still rides well,

Hi Alan,

Do you mean a stationary bounce test seems rock hard ? Is that with the engine idling or off ? On mine with the suspension in soft mode (engine idling) if I sit on the radiator (bonnet open of course ) my weight of 80Kg completely bottoms the suspension. I wouldn't call that rock hard.

However in the hard mode that it switches to 10 seconds after turning off the engine and closing the doors it becomes VERY stiff at the front, when you try to bounce it it feels like you can hardly move it, (very heavy damping) and the static deflection of my weight is only about 30mm.

The very stiff bounce test in hard mode is normal though, as both my front strut spheres are exactly on pressure...

Does yours change significantly between hard and soft modes ?

but when it comes to handling it's equal to the BX 16V and I recently had a moment when some old chook in a Ford Festy was driving towards me, locked the jaw, knuckles turn white on the steering wheel and she politely turned straight across in front of me when I was around 4 car lengths away and doing a good 60 kph!! I stood on the brakes hard and God bless ABS and the hydractive suspension as the car stopped in a dead straight line and without the assend sitting up in the clouds thereby giving me good bite on all 4 wheels.

The Hydractive 2 system certainly helps emergency braking by preventing the rear end flying up into the air like it does on the SX...the combination of Hydractive 2 and ABS (which my car has and my Dad's doesn't) definately gives you a bit of extra security in an emergency...

I run cheapy tyres and tend to chuck it around fairly hard and it's a real fun machine the way the tyres let go steadily and it is so easily controlled in a 4 wheel drift feathering the throttle and occasionally backing off to control it and frightens the shit out of some of the ricers around here when this old fart starts giving them the occasional driving lesson.:roflmao: :roflmao:
So I can say as far as I'm concerned, the VSX has an attraction if for nothing else but being very predictable in its handling.

Yeah I agree about the handling... very pleasant and predicatable. A few motoring writers wrote when the Xantia first came out that its handling was "boring" but to me that means it doesn't wildly understeer or oversteer when pushed in other words it behaves itself, thus making itself "boring" to drive for someone expecting a handfull...

It's quite surreal to be able to waft along a country road with a smooth ride and take a sudden corner with seemingly no body roll and tight handling.... I hate to think how much fun an Activa would be to drive, which truely does have no body roll...

Regards,
Simon

 

[DoubleChevron]

I can't speak of comparisons because I own the only Xantia in probably 100 mile radius, but I must admit, I have some reservations as to whether mine is soft enough in the front and if it's normal or not. It seems rock hard but it still rides well, but when it comes to handling it's equal to the BX 16V and I recently had a moment when some old chook in a Ford Festy was driving towards me, locked the jaw, knuckles turn white on the steering wheel and she politely turned straight across in front of me when I was around 4 car lengths away and doing a good 60 kph!! I stood on the brakes hard and God bless ABS and the hydractive suspension as the car stopped in a dead straight line and without the assend sitting up in the clouds thereby giving me good bite on all 4 wheels.
I run cheapy tyres and tend to chuck it around fairly hard and it's a real fun machine the way the tyres let go steadily and it is so easily controlled in a 4 wheel drift feathering the throttle and occasionally backing off to control it and frightens the shit out of some of the ricers around here when this old fart starts giving them the occasional driving lesson.:roflmao: :roflmao:
So I can say as far as I'm concerned, the VSX has an attraction if for nothing else but being very predictable in its handling.



Alan S

I take it yours has the 14" wheels under it still.... Now to get the hyperactive with sticky 15" 205/50 Toyo's under it's nose to strongly understeer you would have to be going far more quickly than any speed limit I can think of My cousin deliberatly chucked into a corner to get it to terminally understeer/scrub around the corner like his Laguna would ... The look on his face when the tyres just gave a little chirp and turned the amount he'd asked the car to turn throwing me hard into the seatbelt/doortrim (rather than understeering) :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: His Luguna will have 14" high'ish profile rubber on it, so is probably far more fun to drive like Alans (if you get there limits to high it's hard to have fun on public roads with them without being really stupid :disappr: ).

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[STALLED]

Stop giving me ideas on driving :joker:

I think I might have a bit more luck once the festive season has come to an end when it comes to finding one.

Thanks heaps for the information - I certainly will keep my eyes out for a good condition VSX, the specs though which Mandrake I think do differ from the VSX's we got here, I dont think the ones here have the electric seats? (correct me if im wrong?) and where is the outside temp gauge located?

Stalled (The Friendly Commodore Driver )

 

[Mandrake]

Thanks heaps for the information - I certainly will keep my eyes out for a good condition VSX, the specs though which Mandrake I think do differ from the VSX's we got here, I dont think the ones here have the electric seats? (correct me if im wrong?) and where is the outside temp gauge located?

There are some country to country variations yes, for example in the UK the SX comes with ABS as standard, presumably due to some legal requirements over there...

The outside temperature guage is a digital readout in the bottom half of the rev counter...

As for electric seats, ask Shane if his has them...

Regards,
Simon

 

[Alan S]

This is where you should be now:

http://www.drive.com.au/used/search/results.aspx?m=CITROEN|XANTIA

Sellers always get nervous around Christmas/New Year as that's when there's very few buyers.
BTW, whatever happened with the red e-Bay car? I see it's back in News.com adverts again. Is that the one that fell over?


Alan S

 

[Mandrake]

I take it yours has the 14" wheels under it still.... Now to get the hyperactive with sticky 15" 205/50 Toyo's under it's nose to strongly understeer you would have to be going far more quickly than any speed limit I can think of My cousin deliberatly chucked into a corner to get it to terminally understeer/scrub around the corner like his Laguna would ... The look on his face when the tyres just gave a little chirp and turned the amount he'd asked the car to turn throwing me hard into the seatbelt/doortrim (rather than understeering) :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: His Luguna will have 14" high'ish profile rubber on it, so is probably far more fun to drive like Alans (if you get there limits to high it's hard to have fun on public roads with them without being really stupid :disappr: ).

seeya,
Shane L.

Sounds a bit like mine now that I've put 205/60/15 XM1's on the front instead of (worn out) 185/65/15. No sign of understeer on dry roads at any speed I'm willing to push it around corners at!

Very little sign of understeer in the wet either although I'm a bit more cautious there...surprisingly the new tyres eliminated the full lock tyre scruffing that I was getting before too, even though they're a lot wider tyres.

I guess its the flexibility of the outer tread blocks, which are quite large and tall on the XM1's ? As the turning circle of the inner and outer edge of the tyre is different the tread blocks along the edge have to flex to allow for the different turning radius otherwise you get scrubbing...

Regards,
Simon

 

[Trixie]

In Australia, ABS and a driver's airbag was standard on the SX (aside from a very early batch of non-airbag models in '94).