How reliable is the C5? - No Rose coloured glasses please

[GTI124]

Just how reliable is the C5? It did pretty poorly in the 2004 BBC Top Gear User Sat surveys, at 6th last in the field http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/survey/unreliable.shtml

This could be due to dealer support, but I'd like to know what problems you've had with the C5 and how major they were. Do you forgive the reliability woes because of it's driving characteristics?

Thanks,
Lincoln

 

[GreenBlood]

Just how reliable is the C5? It did pretty poorly in the 2004 BBC Top Gear User Sat surveys, at 6th last in the field http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/survey/unreliable.shtml

This could be due to dealer support, but I'd like to know what problems you've had with the C5 and how major they were. Do you forgive the reliability woes because of it's driving characteristics?

Thanks,
Lincoln

Linc, it's a little hard to answer without the rose coloured glasses

We've had our HDi sedan for nearly 2 years it's just about to click over 40k. In the time we've owned it we have made a couple of trips to Sydney, but most of it's driving has been to and from work, a combination of crawling through inner city suburbs and freeway driving, East Bris to Runcorn.

The only fault we've had, has been a replacement solenoid on the auto, we we're having problems selecting reverse on first attempt, fixed under warranty and has behaved impecably since. After 2 years the car doesn't have a rattle or squeak, the C5 seems not to have become a victim of the dreaded Com2000.

On reliability I can't fault it. All electrics work as they should auto wipers, auto lights on, windows, seats, etc. all perfect. There are no reliability woes to forgive. Now this may not be the case in the UK - salted roads could be contributing to the reliability of electrics over there and may be part of the reason for it's poor showing in the Topgear survey??? We had to wait some 12 months after it's release in the UK so many of the 'bugs' they may have had perhaps didn't reach Aus??

Would we buy another? absolutely without hesitation, the new 2.2HDi should be available here in Aus in 2005 so watch this space.......

Cheers
Chris

 

[GTI124]

Thanks Chris. That's of great help.

Do you know when in 2005?

 

[Paul Smith]

I am sure Ed Rowe mentioned a date when he spoke at the NSW meeting last month - it has slipped through the cracks in my brain though.

He did say we were getting the 2nd generation 2.2 - it apparently requires less servicing - the particulate filter is self cleaning.

As to C5 reliability - there are couple of NSW club members who have had some issues with electrics - one in particular seems to have gotten himself a late Friday afternoon car :crazy: , but he still loves it! They were both early cars AFAIK though.

P

 

[Alan S]

I can talk somewhat objectively on this as I am a mod on a couple of UK boards and have seen both sides of this argument.
It seems that the early ones caused them problems that they could have lived without but Cit dealers (and distributors) in their usual "couldn't give a stuff" attitude didn't do themselves or their product any favours by dismissing problems out of hand instead of addressing them (Sound familiar?) As a result, they did get a few owners really off side, mainly due to their attitude and some of these were particularly pist at the way they were treated so decided to return the favour by going on an "I hate C5s and everything involved with them" type of campaign and even if I say so, they did spectacularly well.
Some dealers when they realised they had a tiger by the tale didn't help themselves or the car by doing what could best be described as bloody stupid things; in one case replacing the C5 of a customer with a VW for God's sake!!! How stupid can you get? Some problems were of the amusing variety, such as the one where the sunroof opened whenever it rained and the auto wipers activated. Knocks in the rear suspension were another feature that they did eventually sort out but not before they annoyed a lot of people.
Over here, we seemed to get them after most of the bugs were ironed out and speaking to local owners, most, like Chris have been absolutely stunned at the overall performance and reliability of these cars.
Even in teh UK where most of the controversy ranged, there are people who swore they would never own a C5, solid Cit owners from times gone by who were over critical of them based on others experiences, but when push came to shove and they went looking to buy a car, they were so dissapointed at the standard of other cars they added the C5 to their list, bought one and now like most of the others swear by them after doing in some cases reasonably big miles in a short time.
Chris M in Sydney bought one amid great trepidation but then gave it some miles and discovered that it was one real good car.
Most of the guys who own them now in the UK wonder why they were put off them in the first place and are amazed at some of the negative reports they had on them.
Sure there are possibly some not so great cars, but work in the car game for a while and you find this is common as is the fact that some people buy a car expecting trouble and spend a lot of time looking until they eventually find it; it's almost like an ambition with them.
As far as old Jeremy Clarkson & his mates go, I get most of the Top Gear series sent over by mates in the UK so I see a lot most of you guys might never see and he has got this "thing" about certain cars. For arguments sake, he always but always refers to the finish of Mercedes as "rubbish" so based on that, how much credence do you put on any slant he may put on any other brand of car whether it be a "survey" or a road test?


Alan S

 

[GTI124]

Thanks Alan. that's good to hear.

However, I do disagree on the Jeremy Clarkson thing having any relevance to the survey. This used to be the JD power survey and I've always considered it in fairly high regard.

 

[Alan S]

Thanks Alan. that's good to hear.

However, I do disagree on the Jeremy Clarkson thing having any relevance to the survey. This used to be the JD power survey and I've always considered it in fairly high regard.

That's fair enough Linc, but Jeremy apparently can almost control what goes on at car dealers showrooms around the UK.
They tell me that the Berlingo was just selling until he gave it a wrap and by the Monday morning they had a waiting list.
If you ever want to see him in action, watch him do the "cool car"/"Uncool car" segment and he has the whole audience on & off air eating out of his hand.
Don't sell his effect on the UK car owners short; it's almost scarey.
BTW, I'm trying to get a certain son to commit a couple of these recent series to DVD and if he ever does, I'll possibly send Brenno down a copy so he should be able to rip one for you.
I'd offer but I'm so far behind trying to get my fella to do some I may have to seek outside help.


Alan S

 

[GTI124]

Yeah, I know he's got quite a following. I do watch a fair bit of Top Gear, but I won't say no to the DVD

In the end though, the survey is about reliability, owner satisfaction and dealer service. The dealer service doesn't matter as much as the reliability factor.

It's always an interesting read to see what direct consumers think of the product they've forked their hard earned on, rather than a bunch of hacks. As entertaining as they are!

 

[barryg]

I am sure Ed Rowe mentioned a date when he spoke at the NSW meeting last month - it has slipped through the cracks in my brain though.

IIRC, it was February/March 2005, coinciding with a motor show somewhere.

He did say we were getting the 2nd generation 2.2 - it apparently requires less servicing - the particulate filter is self cleaning.

Yes, the "old" 2.2 needed some magic (and no doubt expensive) little additive tank, as well as additional servicing. This was to maintain the CO2 at the stated levels, as in the UK cars get taxed on the CO2 output. I believe it is very effective, to the extent that one could wipe the inside of the tail pipe with a white cloth & find no soot at all.

The new engine is a 2.0 though, with the power & torque of the old 2.2. Economy is supposed to be better that the 2.2. One of the common gripes in the UK was that the 2.2 consumption was a "disappointing" 40mpg - this in car that weighed the same as the V6 yet could accelerate quicker through the mid range than the V6.

As to C5 reliability - there are couple of NSW club members who have had some issues with electrics - one in particular seems to have gotten himself a late Friday afternoon car :crazy: , but he still loves it! They were both early cars AFAIK though.

P

What is reliability? If one disects the NRMA/Choice type surveys, flat batteries & locking yourself out of the car count. For that reason I think a lot of these surveys are crap.

As far as the early complaints go, after around March 2002 all C5s have the running improvements to correct the known defects (rear suspension noise etc). We got very few C5s earlier than this date & presumably they were all sorted under warranty, hence we don't see those problems.

I was convinced to get a C5 based on two things. One was the outstanding value for money, even compared to other euros including Peugeot. The second was the overall improvement in build quality & servicing levels. I think most people would now be satisfied with the build quality, even compared with the best in the business.

Although the cit purists frown at the C5 hydraulics, I think having the hydraulics active as soon as you open the door levelling the car is brilliant. The 5 year 200000km service interval for the hydraulics is also a big step forward to making the car fuss free. Apparently the spheres are a new design, with double barriers, ensuring few problems & a long service life.

I bought my car with 4000km on the clock as it was an Ateco company car (this is an excellent deal for anyone wanting a C5 BTW). A week later it had 7000km on the clock, courtesy of a quick trip to Griffith & returnng via Dubbo. My only complaint was a lack of cruise control - I found it difficult to tell without looking at the speedo whether I was doing 100 or 120 - and this could be costly. It's now done just over 60000 in 18 months, and is still tight & rattle free.

What's gone wrong with my car? Not much. It has had a number of software upgrades, esp BSI & gearbox. The water pump has been replaced to fix a small leak. The exhaust manifold was replaced to fix a rattle - apparently it is made from four separate pipes that join together & it is a known problem that they can rattle. The fuel pump/sender was replaced to fix the car saying it was empty when it still had 25 litres in the tank. The COM2000 was replaced when the left hand button (which drives the trip computer) stopped working. The only electrical funny I have had was one incident of "anti pollution fault" and looking back that may have been fuel quality related. The car has never done the 2-3 second reboot everything at 120km/hour like some in Europe have reported (and I hope it never does).

What do I find disappointing? The auto box can still do stupid things at times, and sometimes the change back to 2nd can be rough. I'd like more feel throuigh the steering, although I think the overal handling/ride compromise is fine. The 2.0 16V petrol engine is really just adequate, esp in auto form.

Caveats? There is no doubt that there is a long list of expensive things that could go wrong, things that you couldn't fix yourself. That 200000km suspension service is bound to be expensive, and again it's not something you could do yourself. The HP diesel fuel pump is reputed to be a $6k item.

What would I recommend? Get the leather pack. Most of the time it costs nothing, and you get infinite seat adjustment compared to the cloth trim's steps. It made the difference for my wife being able to get a good position as she is 5ft tall. While I would have bought a diesel it if was available in a wagon, the diesels are not H3+ meaning they don't have the centre spheres & the ability to stiffen through corners. Fuel economy wise I doubt a diesel would end up cheaper to run. I regularly get 8-9 commuting in Sydney, and high 6s/low 7s on a trip. I have the car on a 10000km service interval, as I think 20000km is too long, esp in the city.

Cheers,

Barry.

 

[Alan S]

...and speaking of C5s, something I'm sure every C5 owner would really crave.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7938678125&category=33643

:roflmao: :roflmao: :nownow: :nownow:


Alan S

 

[coladuna]

What's gone wrong with my car? Not much. It has had a number of software upgrades, esp BSI & gearbox. The water pump has been replaced to fix a small leak. The exhaust manifold was replaced to fix a rattle - apparently it is made from four separate pipes that join together & it is a known problem that they can rattle. The fuel pump/sender was replaced to fix the car saying it was empty when it still had 25 litres in the tank. The COM2000 was replaced when the left hand button (which drives the trip computer) stopped working. The only electrical funny I have had was one incident of "anti pollution fault" and looking back that may have been fuel quality related. The car has never done the 2-3 second reboot everything at 120km/hour like some in Europe have reported (and I hope it never does).

With all those problems you had you are still saying not much has gone wrong with your car?

 

[danielsydney]

They are a great looking car esp the V6 version they just fly I have been told.

 

[TroyO]

I bought my car with 4000km on the clock as it was an Ateco company car (this is an excellent deal for anyone wanting a C5 BTW).

I did a similar deal as you with my Xsara, which was a 3500km and 3 month old Ateco company car.

The exhaust manifold was replaced to fix a rattle - apparently it is made from four separate pipes that join together & it is a known problem that they can rattle.

This has been a problem in some 206 GTi's as well, perhaps other models sharing the same 2L petrol engine.

Troy.

 

[Alan S]

With all those problems you had you are still saying not much has gone wrong with your car?

Don't lose sight of the fact that the car has done 60K klms.
I've often said that too many French car owners seem to tend to get paranoid about faults in cars, particularly new ones. I've worked at Ford and Toyota franchises & believe me that is nothing by comparison.
I also bought a Holden when I had the driving school. It had almost every major component serviced or replaced on it. (ie) Clutch, diff (twice) front end on several occasions, gearbox three times, brakes binding on even went as far as having bits of the outside trim fall off the day I bought it and what did the service manager at the Holden dealer tell me when I had to teach kids how to double declutch to get it into second gear when I was teaching them to drive because the synchros kept stuffing up in the gearbox? "It is within GMHs acceptable standards and doesn't warrant repairs" :joker: Just after I sold it and the business, the new owner had to replace all the intake valves and the RACQ inspector told me when I had a "pre end of warranty inspection" done on it when I was selling it that "if it was a used car, I'd be advising you not to buy it" How's that for a car that had done less than 20K klms?
Alright, it might have been a driving school car, but I kept the service up to it because it was my source of income and it wasn't belted being an owner/operator. I could tell you almost equally bad stories about the other franchises I was invoolved with but as I say; Ford, Toyota and Holden buyers seem convinced that these problems are just plain "bad luck" whereas Cit & Pug buyers in particular seem to take itas inevitable, fate, destiny call it what you likebut a different culture purveys the French car market to the others.

Alan S

 

[UFO]

They are a great looking car esp the V6 version they just fly I have been told.

Uh huh!!:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: Especially with the tranny in sports mode!!

 

[coladuna]

Don't lose sight of the fact that the car has done 60K klms.

Uh... so what? 60,000kms isn't exactly a lot to justify that sort of faults in a car. Holden aren't exactly renowned for their reliabilty either. My parent's BMW 3 series has done over 140,000kms and never had any problems. Back in the 90's when we had a EA Fairmont, we didn't have any problems either.
If I had to cope with all those problems with a 2-3 year old car, I'd be furious and never ever would buy that brand ever again. I just don't get how some of you are so casual about this. My

 

[Alan S]

Gets back to what I just said about peoples reaction to car problems.
Are you serious in saying the Beemer has had NO problems in 140K? Because a while back somebody off this board bought a BX off a BMW mechanic and the horror stories he told was quite to the contrary.
Fords reliable? Why then did the Probe, Mondeo and a few other models disappear as quick as they did? Toyota? Ask anyone; ultra reliable, yet my son helped push one (wank tank) through an intersection a few months back whereupon the lady driver commented that this was "the second transmission in 12 months this car's done; exactly the same last time. Just as well it's still under warranty. They tell me it's something they've never seen before" Quite happy to accept it. "Yeah right lady; keep pushing" :nownow:
The Toyota place I was at even sold Mercedes and believe me, they have their share of problems in the early stages too; if your family have had no problems then they are the kinds of customers dealers dream of, because usually most owners are overly critical of their new cars; it's natural and as I say, I also worked at a Pug/Renault franchise later on and the difference in attitude of customers is quite marked.

[edit/] Hey woh, hang on; your family had an EA Falcon that didn't overheat or have problems? Where is it now; in the Ford museum?

Alan S

 

[Graelin]

Alan you are right!

People with Fords seem to live with the heaps of cr..p that they bought and dont mind they have to Fix or replace daily.

My Brother bought a Brand New Ford Falcon around 96 model. He had endless overheating problems until at 75,000 kms he found what had been blocking his radiator, yes the cylinder head was disolving A COMMON PROBLEM. He had radiator cleaned out BY FORD every 10,000kms and new coolant so dont say he did not look after it.

The list of problems was endless and every time he mentioned it to other Falcon drivers they said "Oh mines had that done" As if it were just normal.

As he said if only these people had told him before he bought it.

Then came the real fun Paid $35,000. Three years later he decided he had had enough of the troubles. It was a dress up model alloys spoiler in perfect condition visually, never flogged as he said "It was just to scary to go fast in"

Despite the shiny new cylinder head Ford offere $10,000 trade in on another.

He took the $18,000 ona Laguna V6.

Now he has a 405 and a Clio for his wife.

He will never go Ford again.

Now I also had misfortune to have company Fords. They were replaced at 10,000kms as part of deal. The suspension was real soggy by then.

Oh I nearly forgot the in car entertainment system Every time it rained door locks would go up and down as we drove them.

Graelin

 

[coladuna]

Did I say Fords are reliable?
You seriously don't know how to read and comprehend.
I merely showed that EVEN our Ford (not the most reliable car manufacturer as we know it) didn't have any problem in the first 100,000km.
You made it sound like having those problems with your C5 during the first 60,000km is not a big deal. It is in fact a big deal because when you buy a brand new or almost new car, you expect it to be trouble free for a while.
In my mind, it's no big achievement for cars to not have any problem in the first 100,000km. Obviously you expect much less from your cars.

Fine, let's just say our family was lucky to have had trouble free BMW and Ford. You argue that it's only our experience. Let's just look at reliability surveys for bigger sample size. Where does Citroen stand in these surveys? The last time I checked, they are no where near the top.

Even my sister's C2, in the first 4 months of ownership needed the alternator changed. That was before the countless number of trips to the dealer to find out the electrical problem we were having. After a few trips, they eventually gave up and replaced the alternator and the assembly behind the steering wheel comprising of all the stalks and the computer. After that experience, I doubt we'll ever be buying another Citroen again.

While it's a great fun little car, that experience made me even more aware of Citroen's reliability issues. The fact is, Citroen is no where near the Japanese in terms of build quality and reliability and you can't deny that.

 

[barryg]

Uh... so what? 60,000kms isn't exactly a lot to justify that sort of faults in a car. Holden aren't exactly renowned for their reliabilty either. My parent's BMW 3 series has done over 140,000kms and never had any problems. Back in the 90's when we had a EA Fairmont, we didn't have any problems either.
If I had to cope with all those problems with a 2-3 year old car, I'd be furious and never ever would buy that brand ever again. I just don't get how some of you are so casual about this. My

All what problems?? Software upgrades are just routine; wouldn't you *want* to have this done if it was available? Fact is most places would just do it & not tell you about it. Water Pump? I'm not convinced that was the problem, but that's what they did to fix it, and I've had zero problems since. I noted at service time that I had to add maybe 150ml once - could have been that way from new, I don't know. Most other places would have topped up the coolant & sent me on my way. Exhaust rattle? Could have been a stone that did it, at least they fixed it no questions asked. Fuel sender? Again, they replaced bits that I'm not sure were faulty. COM2000? Again, a known source of problems, and the newer parts are known to fix it. The car has not had one day off the road nor cost anything other than routine servicing, and fixing these quite minor problems is what warranty is for.

Your parent's BMW obviously didn't have the Nikasil problem - you'd be singing a different tune if it had. 140000km is about when things start to go bad too, suspension bushes, power steering, gearbox oil seals (and the oil is $40/litre as well) etc. I fully expect the C5 to be running to well beyond 200000km with no major dramas. At 60000 it still drives perfectly, and is still as tight as new with no rattles etc.

Barry.