How much for an XM/Xantia Accumulator?

[sdabel]

Seen on fleaBay:

CITROEN XANTIA & XM

HYDRAULIC SUSPENSION ACCUMALATOR SPHERE

** NEW & GENUINE

This is sold new by well known UK parts supplier for GBP18

Any idea why it went to GBP31 ? Am I missing something?

regards
sean

 

[Alan S]

Seen on fleaBay:

CITROEN XANTIA & XM

HYDRAULIC SUSPENSION ACCUMALATOR SPHERE

** NEW & GENUINE

This is sold new by well known UK parts supplier for GBP18

Any idea why it went to GBP31 ? Am I missing something?

regards
sean

Probably bought by someone used to Australian prices so thought it was a bargain at double overseas retail price.:crazy: :crazy: :joker:


Alan S

 

[ajpolden]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the GSF spheres aren't genuine, are they? Where as the the ebay advert specifies they are genuine parts.

Andrew.

 

[Alan S]

What are "Genuine" spheres?
They change makers almost on a yearly basis so what is "genuine" this year is "non genuine" next and as there'd be lucky to be a half dozen sphere makers, it's anybody's guess.
My reading of the ad was that they were "Genuine as sold by GSF" so chances are they are the brand currently being sold by GSF that at the time were "genuine."


Alan S

 

[Mandrake]

If you look in the GSF catalogue you'll see that they sell both genuine Citroen spheres, and 3rd party ones.

From memory I think they have both genuine accumulators and 3rd party ones. Their genuine spheres are still a lot cheaper than what we pay here in NZ (like less than half the price) however I calculated I needed to buy at least 4 spheres for the saving to result in an actual saving, once the relatively high freight costs to the antipodes are included.

They don't have genuine ones for all types however, as I noticed they can do genuine front spheres for a standard Xantia, but can only supply 3rd party front ones for a Hydractive Xantia.

Because of this I eventually decided against getting a batch of spheres from GSF as they don't have the 3 dimple multi diaphram long life spheres for the Hydractive model which my car already had....(I dont want to go from a sphere that can last 6-8 years between regassing to one that will only last about 2 years )

Regards,
Simon

 

[Alan S]

...................and what brand name was stamped on your "genuine" spheres?
To my knowledge Citroen don't make spheres just as they don't make alternators, air con parts, light globes, head bolts and the majority of things in the car.
In the past I've been told they have come from Spain, Italy and Europe and there is one brand that apparently was a bit sus which started all this "genuine are better than non genuine" talk after it won the contract for supplying the "genuine" ones and was subsequently dropped.
I won't reveal the source, but the info is "genuine."

Alan S

 

[Mandrake]

...................and what brand name was stamped on your "genuine" spheres?

Not too sure if your remark is directed at me, but I've never seen any brand names stamped on any spheres, ever... have you ?

However its known that none of the "3rd party" sphere manufacturers currently make the multi diaphram spheres used on the front of some Xantia's, which have the 3 dimples around the filler cap. GSF certainly don't sell any...and neither do their competitors.

To my knowledge Citroen don't make spheres just as they don't make alternators, air con parts, light globes, head bolts and the majority of things in the car.
In the past I've been told they have come from Spain, Italy and Europe and there is one brand that apparently was a bit sus which started all this "genuine are better than non genuine" talk after it won the contract for supplying the "genuine" ones and was subsequently dropped.
I won't reveal the source, but the info is "genuine."

Alan S

In my mind "genuine" means that they were either sourced FROM Citroen, or were the exact same type sourced from the same manufacturer and production runs that Citroen sourced them from.

3rd party are ones that are compatible, but which were not sold by Citroen, and were not sourced from a manufacturer that Citroen used for their supply of spheres...

If you know what brand was "dropped", why not let us know ?

Regards,
Simon

 

[Alan S]

Different brands were distinguished by their part numbers which is why GSF and several other sphere tables have varying numbers for the different types of spheres.
The three dimples you refer to is not so much an identification of these so called "multi layered spheres" you keep referring to as it was an effort by some sphere makers to prevent the spheres to be re-gassed and this was an attempt to make them impossible to regas using off the shelf regassing gear and patented regassing valves. Using the systems we do out here this doesn't create a problem as our regassers have an "O" ring that sits out from the dimples.
I'd suggest you read a posting by Clogzz about multi layer spheres which may explain it a bit more in detail.
I'd have to go back over my records but the spheres with the dodgy reputation had a name beginning with A but as there's 2 brands which sound similar, I'd have to confirm which one it was before I stuck my neck out and named it, but believe me, it did exist as I can do better things with my time at present than talk bullshit for the sake of it.


Alan S

 

[DoubleChevron]

I've been in contact with Plaides about getting a set of spheres for the front of the Xantia. You may find this interesting.

Hi Shane,

We have very little 3.5mm cupro-nickel pipe remaining, so you would need to
order it direct from Pleiades in England. If you want to fax them for a
proforma invoice, you dial: 00 15 44 1487 831326 of email:
citroenspares@virgin.net The pipe fittings are not a problem as we have good
stocks of those.

We have some laminated Xantia spheres at $175.00 per pair

Regards,

Hello again Shane,

Just seen your email. The sphere is not laminated but the diaphragm
is. Earlier diaphragms were made from polyurethane. This was an
excellent material
being resistant to both mineral fluids and low temperatures. However, it does
permit the passage of nitrogen molecules (molecular diffusion). In the
laminated diaphragm, a thin layer (about .3mm) of polythene is sandwitched
between two layers of polyurethane. The polythene is almost impermiable to
nitrogen molecules and therefore does not loose pressure to any degree due to
difusion. Snag is that in cold climates it can crack thus cutting the
poleurathane and dumping the gas. Citroen overcame this problem on the C5 by
changing the sphere shape to oblate spheroid thus reducing the degree of
diaphragm flex.

If you can let me know the part numbers printed on your spheres, I will
check to
see if we can help.

Regards,

My Xantia finally has one front sphere losing pressure(duel diaphram) they are 11years old. Rogers XM appears to have the original duel diaphram and his XM would be 15?? years old. They must certainly IMO are worth the $$$ given the time they last.

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[DoubleChevron]

The sphere is a slow leaker ... ie: after you test it, you can see tiny bubbles in the LHM... It'll probably take another 6months to go dead flat. It can't be regassed.

If I'm feeling fit oneday I might cut it in half with a hacksaw (anything but a nice cold hacksaw blade would destroy the diaphram).

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[Mandrake]

Different brands were distinguished by their part numbers which is why GSF and several other sphere tables have varying numbers for the different types of spheres.

The three dimples you refer to is not so much an identification of these so called "multi layered spheres" you keep referring to as it was an effort by some sphere makers to prevent the spheres to be re-gassed and this was an attempt to make them impossible to regas using off the shelf regassing gear and patented regassing valves. Using the systems we do out here this doesn't create a problem as our regassers have an "O" ring that sits out from the dimples.
I'd suggest you read a posting by Clogzz about multi layer spheres which may explain it a bit more in detail.

Hi Alan,

No need, I have copies of the genuine Citroen service manuals, at least the hydraulic/suspension section, and it very clearly says that the spheres with 3 dimples are identified as being multilayer diaphrams, so I'm not taking it as 2nd or 3rd hand information. And although it doesn't explicitely say so, there is implication in the text that you can't/shouldn't regass them, and the dimples are no doubt an attempt to discourage regassers, but the fact remains they are also identification.

Here is the exact text:

---

Diaphram types:

* D = Desmopan
* U = Urepan
* M = Multicouche (*)

(*) from 06/93, RPO No. 6056, certain pneumatic units are equipped with multi-sheet diaphgrams.

These units can be identified by having 3 exterior markings on top.

The pressure value for this type of pneumatic unit is given for information, only.

-----

So theres a clear implication there that they don't want you regassing them... but that never stopped people

I'd have to go back over my records but the spheres with the dodgy reputation had a name beginning with A but as there's 2 brands which sound similar, I'd have to confirm which one it was before I stuck my neck out and named it, but believe me, it did exist as I can do better things with my time at present than talk bullshit for the sake of it.


Alan S

Alan, you seem to be getting the wrong end of the stick.... I'm not saying you're bullshitting, I am just genuinely interested in knowing which brand they are. I don't have much time for "3rd party" spheres in the first place, and knowing that there is a brand still being sold that Citroen themselves stopped using is disconcerting to say the least...and makes me even less likely to use 3rd party spheres...

Regards,
Simon

 

[Alan S]

You've misread it somehow, it was Andyspares/GSF who were selling them, but I still can't get my head around the logic that if they come in Citroen boxes they must be genuine regardless of who made them or where they were made and this is the crux of the whole thing.
As a compariosn, it's akin to buying say a 'Valeo' part in a Valeo box for $50 and a 'Valeo' part in a Citroen box for $250 and saying the latter was better because it was genuine, because this is exactly what happens with spheres; 'Official suppliers" alter from year to year and that is from within the trade in Europe. It has been discussed in the past why some "genuine" last and some don't, so in fact you find the ones in the know over there are aware of which are which (or at least used to be) and used to modify their buying habits to suit, but hey, if you're happy to pay exhorbitant prices for something you can buy elsewhere, don't let me stop you.
These guys supposedly had the contract at one stage (may still have) and friends I have in Portugal and Spain reckon their spheres are second to none and prices are very competitive. They claim a failure rate at about .2% from memory.

http://www.lizarte.com/eng/productos/buscar_marca.asp?idf=5


Alan S

 

[Mandrake]

Hi Alan,

I don't really see what you're trying to get at....

I didn't say anything about Citroen boxes, I said spheres obtained FROM Citroen. If Citroen sell them, by definition they are the "genuine", surely ?

What other way would there be to define a "genuine" article ?

They have decided, rightly or wrongly that those spheres meet their requirements. Maybe at some point down the road they will become unhappy with the price or reliability from that OEM and switch to another one, but thats a side issue and happens with any make of car with a large number of second sourced parts.

If brand XYZ is the OEM for the spheres one year and then they get dropped by Citroen because of reliability problems, should that OEM's spheres sold direct to the public after that date still be considered genuine ? I'd say no, technically speaking.

Will they still try to maintain the same standard of manufacture if they're selling them cheaper directly to the public rather than OEM'ing to Citroen ? Possibly not....See my point ?

No I'm not happy paying more for "genuine" spheres, (in fact I've only bought one new sphere for my car - an accumulator) but when the people "in the know" aren't letting on which OEM brands are good (or to put it another way, in favour with Citroen) and which are not, how am I expected to know ?

I've lost count of how many people I've seen on the ex-Andyspare forum who have bought 3rd party spheres only to have them prematurely fail or need regassing after only 1 or 2 years...the spheres on my GS years ago lasted the entire 5 years I had it with no need of regassing so I don't think 1 to 2 years is acceptable.

I'm sure SOME of the 3rd party spheres are very good, but others are rubbish, and without solid facts about which ones are good and bad, its a bit like pot luck...

Regards,
Simon

 

[Mandrake]

My Xantia finally has one front sphere losing pressure(duel diaphram) they are 11years old. Rogers XM appears to have the original duel diaphram and his XM would be 15?? years old. They must certainly IMO are worth the $$$ given the time they last.

seeya,
Shane L.

Hi Shane,

Thats interesting - now I see why they don't want people regassing the multilayer spheres - because the middle layer would be prone to cracking when the sphere is operated with very low pressure, and wouldn't survive regassing.

In fact I'm reasonably sure this is the main failure mode even for normal spheres that puncture - as the gas pressure drops lower and lower, the oil pressure causes the diaphram to get folded back on itself causing a sharp crease near the middle section of the sphere - causing fatigue of the diaphram and eventually breaking it.

Thats why the rule of thumb of not regassing suspension spheres that have dropped to less than half their pressure works - above that point there is little risk of the diaphram being creased back too tightly and fatigued. The sooner you regas them the longer they last...

It's also why accumulators aren't often worth regassing - because they have the full 170 bars pressure on them all the time and are already 3/4 full of oil, it wouldn't take much gas pressure loss until they're in the danger region and getting fatigued - and unlike suspension spheres most people wouldn't realise they were low in gas until its too late, and the damage is done...which is why although I'm happy to regas suspension spheres I only ever use new accumulators.

It sounds like your one with the slow leak might have ruptured the middle layer, and now the sphere will start losing pressure at the "normal" rate, and the sharp edge will probably damage one of the other two layers long before the gas leaks away slowly... so probably a good idea to replace it...

I agree about them being worth a little bit more - the ones on my car were only down from 45 to 40 bars and they're 8 years old, and a second hand pair that are 4 years old are spot on 45.

I'd rather pay a bit more for a sphere that is going to last longer than I'm likely to have the car, than have to keep regassing every 2 years or so to keep the ride up to scratch. If it lasts 8 - 12 years but can't be regassed, I won't be complaining...

It's possible the spheres on that XM are not the original - the info I have suggests the multilayer spheres were not introduced until mid 1993, so assuming its about a 1990 XM, that may be the first replacement spheres fitted to it when the originals got a bit flat, and they have lasted until now. Even if thats the case its still 12 years which is impressive.

Regards,
Simon

 

[Clogzz]

Recent picture from Belgium showing dimples arranged in a never-seen pattern.

 

[Roger Wilkinson]

Recent picture from Belgium showing dimples arranged in a never-seen pattern.

Are most of them some other pattern? The pattern of those dimples looks the same as on the two front spheres on my XM. I've just been outside with a torch to check.

Roger

 

[Clogzz]

Yes, all those I've seen this far have the 3 dimples spaced equally around the plug.
Never seen any like in the photo, and thought that they were a more recent, more devious way of defeating the regassers.

 

[Mandrake]

Yes, all those I've seen this far have the 3 dimples spaced equally around the plug.
Never seen any like in the photo, and thought that they were a more recent, more devious way of defeating the regassers.

Hi Clogzz,

My 1997 Hydractive 2 Xantia has the same dimple pattern that you show in your picture - both my original spheres and the second hand ones I got.

Also my Dad's 1994 SX also has the same dimple pattern. So they're not so rare over here...(in fact I havn't seen the pattern you describe before)

Regards,
Simon

 

[sdabel]

No Dimples on my XM

Had a look at my XM (UK import S2) and no dimples anywhere. I had the centre spheres replaced soon after getting the car and remember the new ones coming in a Citroen box. I think that the (poor quality) picture shows that they don't have dimples.

Is it just the front supenstion spheres that get the triple membranes?

regards
sean

 

[Clogzz]

I haven't seen the pattern you describe before

That's good news, because I thought that there now were more compelling, but still futile attempts to defeat the regassers.

As for the only front spheres I've ever seen, here is one, from Shane's list: