how about some 403 discussion?

[morton403]

Anybody out there got anything to say about 403's. Most of the chit chat seems to be about later model stuff of late. it's the only peugeot I have so i'm feeling a bit unable to contribute. Let me tell you a little about my car. I had a 1957 403 as my first car when I got my licence in Feb 1974. I had itr for four years and then decided it wasn't very cool. I gave it to my sister and bought a limey green 1973 Renault 12. Then I traded up to a 1.4 litre 1978 Renault 12. In the meantime my sister got hit up the arse by a very large motorcycle in Melbourne, destroying my old Pug.
In recent times I got quite excited to see the Redex Re-Run and became keen to get back into Peugeots. I enquired about, and test drove, a few and eventually was advised by a PCCV member that one of the cars in the re-run was possibly going to be available for purchase. Over the phone I struck a deal with the owner and after viewing it left a deposit.
When I took a day off work to see the Rally go through Melbourne I met a fellow Bendigonian co-driving on the Re-Run who described how a 403 diff had destroyed itself on the Re-Run and how wonderfully everybody had pitched in, found a car on a farm, transplanted the diff by the roadside and got the owner back on the road. He was marvelling at the comraderie.
To my surprise it subsequently turned out that the car was the very one I had bought. My friend even had a photo of the transplant taking place. He gave it to me. I have kept most of the stickers on the car. I have to replace a rear engine mount and generally go over it these holidays and do a few things to make it run nicer.
It's great to have a car that I can actually tinker and fiddle about with again. Our other modern cars only allow you to touch things under the bonnet that have a splodge of yellow paint on.
Anybody out there recall Car 42? Any tips on rear engine mounts and their replacement?

 

[Ray Bell]

So where's this farm and what's left on that car?

I had a '56 403 for about eight months (a lifetime for me with cars in the sixties...)... it was my first Pug.

The thing was so reliable, though it did break an axle once, that it conned me into believing I should make a life of having Pugs to drive.

When I got my first 404 I was convinced.

 

[Pugnut403]

My first car was also a 403, but I still have it. It is the one in my avatar at the moment. I fell in love with it after about 500m of the test drive and knew I would buy it even though it was pretty scruffy and had a tired engine.

My grandfather had several 403s and my father had one in his youth. I fell in love with them at a young age, and always knew I would get one someday.

Mine is currently on axle stands awaiting a gearbox, as teh old one was dying and teh replacement had a broken synchro, so it is supposed to be getting the synchro swapped but it is happening too slowly for me. I just wanna drive it!.

By rear engine mount, do you mean the piece that goes around the rear of the gearbox? That was almost in pieces on mine, but I have got a better replacement. They can be rerubbered by Scott's Old Auto Rubber for about $250 or so.
The engine or diff must come out to get it off. There are 3 bolts holding it to the body, one under each front seat and one on the tunnel top, and it just slips over the gearbox rear end.

I hope your 403 goes well, and if I can help in any way let me know. I have a factory workshop manual and a set of illustrated parts catalogues, so if need an exploded drawing of a part let me know and I will scan and email it to you. Must help out fellow 403 fans.

 

[pugrambo]

i have had a few 403's
scrapped more of them than i drove
actually scrapped a lot of cars over the years not just 403's
had a ute once as well with very low miles on it which in hindsight i should have kept but you can't keep all the cars you have over the years
my favourite car was a 61 B model
i do prefer the B model cars
always wanted a wagon and i will get there one day but it won't be standard as i couldn't stand to drive a standard wagon
403's in my opinion are a much better car to drive than a 404 except for power but with some tinkering they can go very well
403's also look better than 404's
404's are too austin freeway'sih for my liking
don't run 404 wheels on the 403 unless you want a narrower track
i had 404 wheels on mine but i also had 185 or 195/65/15's on them

 

[Pugnut403]

How wide can you go with the standard 403 or 404 wheels?The standard size is 165 but they are hard to get. Do any of the wider sizes have the same rolling radius to keep the speedo right?
My 403 is a B.

 

[Ray Bell]

195/65s should be pretty close.

 

[pugrambo]

How wide can you go with the standard 403 or 404 wheels?The standard size is 165 but they are hard to get. Do any of the wider sizes have the same rolling radius to keep the speedo right?
My 403 is a B.

the 185/65 tyres aren't too bad on 403/404 wheels
195/65 you are starting to balloon a little too much for my liking
from memory the 185/65 was pretty damn close to the 165

 

[morton403]

thanks

My first car was also a 403, but I still have it. It is the one in my avatar at the moment. I fell in love with it after about 500m of the test drive and knew I would buy it even though it was pretty scruffy and had a tired engine.

My grandfather had several 403s and my father had one in his youth. I fell in love with them at a young age, and always knew I would get one someday.

Mine is currently on axle stands awaiting a gearbox, as teh old one was dying and teh replacement had a broken synchro, so it is supposed to be getting the synchro swapped but it is happening too slowly for me. I just wanna drive it!.

By rear engine mount, do you mean the piece that goes around the rear of the gearbox? That was almost in pieces on mine, but I have got a better replacement. They can be rerubbered by Scott's Old Auto Rubber for about $250 or so.
The engine or diff must come out to get it off. There are 3 bolts holding it to the body, one under each front seat and one on the tunnel top, and it just slips over the gearbox rear end.

I hope your 403 goes well, and if I can help in any way let me know. I have a factory workshop manual and a set of illustrated parts catalogues, so if need an exploded drawing of a part let me know and I will scan and email it to you. Must help out fellow 403 fans.

Thanks for the offer of material. I'm an avid collector of 403 stuff, including manuals and other curios. I was pleased that the glovebox still had a handbook in it and I have a couple of different workshop manuals. I buy a bit of stuff on ebay, sometimes just things like old adverts and magazines with road tests. I'm really enjoying driving an old car again. It really focuses your attention. You drive defensively and ensure that braking distances are adhered to. Modern cars are a bit like dodgem cars, especially automatics. You actually feel like you are DRIVING the car. When I'm getting about town I forget that my car is still covered in Redex Re-Run stickers etc but haven't got the heart to rip them off even though I didn't go on the rally. Apparently there may be a Re-Run in 2006, the anniversary of a 403 win. People seem to be very sentimental about early cars they had especially if they were 403's. I agree with the comment about 404's looking too much like Austins but they were high achieving cars and seem to be aknowledged as Peugeot's best. I never like travelling in the front seat of my brother's. It felt too high or something. I prefer the 403 but it's not exactly bursting with power. That's not why I choose to drive it. It's funny. each 403 I've climbed into has had a similar smell, identical to the smell I remembered from the one I left in 1977.One of my challenges will be to get the Town and Country horns working properly. I seem to have only one note. Thanks for replying. Hope to see more 403 stuff in Froggy Forum. I was getting a little discouraged.

 

[M. Tippett]

403

Styling is of course subjective, but I too consider the 403 to be better-looking than the 404 saloon. And it probably is because of that Morris Oxford/Austin Cambridge thing. Those were such awful cars, and ubiquitous too....

On the face of it, the 404 is a clean, elegant design. Still, I think the 403 looks more solid, even though it's lighter.

However, I do prefer the 404 Coupé over the 403, even over the 403 Cabriolet. The styling of the 404 C is just so nice, with some fine detailing that the saloon did not get (like the descending scallop on the side). My 404 Coupé Injection is a restoration project, but I drove injected 404s - including another 404 C Injection - as everyday cars for a decade (1980s) and they really are fabulous.

About the body stiffness, the 403 is likely stiffer than the 404 saloon, but the 404 Coupé is another matter entirely, with all the chassis reinforcements designed for the Cabriolet plus a permanent roof. I can assure you that even a quite rusty 404 Coupé is torsionally stiffer than a 405 saloon was new.

The 404 was the car that established Peugeot's worldwide reputation for extraordinary toughness, but the 403 might have made the grade if they'd had a 1600 engine with KF injection in them too. That was the thing that gave the 404 the edge it needed to become more than the 403, at least in performance terms.

If you have a new diff in your 403, check the type of lube, as they're supposed to have castor- (plant) based oils only, such as Mobilube P, Esso Gear Oil VT or Castrol R 40. Using mineral oils will destroy a bronze crown gear in no time flat. Maybe that's why it blew on the Redex?

About tires, Michelin recommends that no more than a 180 section tire go onto a 4.5 x 380 403 or 404 rim. The rim was designed for 165/82-15 tires. Michelin made many 403 and 404 wheels and also sells the excellent XAS tires in both 165 and 180-15 (that's for a Citroën DS) size. I once ran 175/70-15 Michelin MXL tires on a 404 saloon with KF2 injection and later type suspension (F 23 mm and R 14 mm anti-roll bars) and it cornered like nobody's business. The gearing was even shorter though...

The Utility cars had 5 inch rims with 5 bolts and these can take a 185 section tire with no worries, if you have, or eventually get, a 403 or 404 wagon. 185s were optional from the factory on these.

I saw a beautiful unrestored 403 saloon in West Vancouver in May - it was fantastic, light green, and looked SOOO nice. I'd like a 403 someday too, but the 404 Coupé Injection restoration has to come first.

In fact, I could have bought a restorable 403 Cabriolet in Vancouver in 1986 for $1500 CDN (lots of new parts too) but I was a student at the time and had to let it go. Probably worth $15K unrestored now.....D'Oh! It lives (partially restored) in Florida now.

Best regards from Canada,
Mike Tippett

 

[Filldebin]

403s

Yeah 403s are great, i've had several but the funniest was the 403 ute i town, (before all the cameras) it was well geared for quick take offs and up to about 80 ks when it would lose acceleration. It was good even in the country with a good load and a trailer full loaded, but then one only cruised at about 60 miles an hour. The 404 ute was more willing though and towed an even bigger trailer. I don't understand about broken diffs, the only busted one was the 404 ute, but it was the spline just in front of the diff and not the actual innards.
I wanted to send a picture but it doesn't seem be possible, a nice 403 ute. I've got a nice photo of a 403 wagon too.
Keep on peugeoting.

:adrink:

 

[davemcbean]

Still, I think the 403 looks more solid, even though it's lighter.

I thought the 403 was around 1070-1080kg, while the 404 ranged from 1060kg for basic cars up to around 1090kg for cars with injection and a sunroof. If so, then the basic 404 (which is most common here) is slightly lighter than the 403, although for all intents and purposes both cars have pretty much the same mass.

These are the kerb masses I'm using (i.e. wet) whereas I know many of the early 1960s specs were dry weights which showed the 404 and 403 to be much closer to a round 1000kg.

Dave

 

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

The diff came out of the spares truck that followed the event, so no car to wreck Ray, sorry.
The part about everone pitching in to help was true, though. This happened at the Mountain View Hillclimb near Grafton.
We did wreck a car near Mckinley in Queensland though, got an excellent head and some front suspension and brakes (1959 wagon).
I have started work on an Ampol Rerun, should be a month or two until some details can be released, (entry fee, length etc.)
Yes the 403 is slightly heavier than the 404 but much stronger in the body if not the mechanicals.
Please contact me for parts, I have heaps, particularly mechanical bits.

Graham Wallis

Anybody out there got anything to say about 403's. Most of the chit chat seems to be about later model stuff of late. it's the only peugeot I have so i'm feeling a bit unable to contribute. Let me tell you a little about my car. I had a 1957 403 as my first car when I got my licence in Feb 1974. I had itr for four years and then decided it wasn't very cool. I gave it to my sister and bought a limey green 1973 Renault 12. Then I traded up to a 1.4 litre 1978 Renault 12. In the meantime my sister got hit up the arse by a very large motorcycle in Melbourne, destroying my old Pug.
In recent times I got quite excited to see the Redex Re-Run and became keen to get back into Peugeots. I enquired about, and test drove, a few and eventually was advised by a PCCV member that one of the cars in the re-run was possibly going to be available for purchase. Over the phone I struck a deal with the owner and after viewing it left a deposit.
When I took a day off work to see the Rally go through Melbourne I met a fellow Bendigonian co-driving on the Re-Run who described how a 403 diff had destroyed itself on the Re-Run and how wonderfully everybody had pitched in, found a car on a farm, transplanted the diff by the roadside and got the owner back on the road. He was marvelling at the comraderie.
To my surprise it subsequently turned out that the car was the very one I had bought. My friend even had a photo of the transplant taking place. He gave it to me. I have kept most of the stickers on the car. I have to replace a rear engine mount and generally go over it these holidays and do a few things to make it run nicer.
It's great to have a car that I can actually tinker and fiddle about with again. Our other modern cars only allow you to touch things under the bonnet that have a splodge of yellow paint on.
Anybody out there recall Car 42? Any tips on rear engine mounts and their replacement?

 

[morton403]

The diff came out of the spares truck that followed the event, so no car to wreck Ray, sorry.
The part about everone pitching in to help was true, though. This happened at the Mountain View Hillclimb near Grafton.
We did wreck a car near Mckinley in Queensland though, got an excellent head and some front suspension and brakes (1959 wagon).
I have started work on an Ampol Rerun, should be a month or two until some details can be released, (entry fee, length etc.)
Yes the 403 is slightly heavier than the 404 but much stronger in the body if not the mechanicals.
Please contact me for parts, I have heaps, particularly mechanical bits.

Graham Wallis

Thanks for the information on the Redex Re-Run diff incident. I'll add it to my collection. My first 403 was pretty reliable but I did have a broken tailshaft once and on another occasion a Panhard rod that detached itself, or broke, can't remember which.
I remember visiting a house in Lake Cargelligo in central NSW when I was still at Teachers College (drove there from Bendigo). We'd intended just to say hello. An hour or two later we returned to the car. I'd left it idling in the driveway and there it was still ticking away like a clock. Luckily no-one had thought to steal it.One benefit of Peugeots is that the average nong would struggle to start one and work out the gear pattern I suppose. I had problems at one stage with a blocking carby jet and would routinely unscrew it and blow muck out. Must have left it loose or something. Returning from Benalla to Shepparton one morning at 2:00am I went through a cutting somewhere near Dookie and noticed flickering light on the wall of the cutting. Realised I was on fire. Pulled up rapidly. Engine bay was ablaze. Remarkably a car on an early morning run to Bathurst pulled up. He had an extinguisher and put out the fire. The electrics were burnt out but replacement of wiring etc the next day ugplak: had the car running as good as new. Very scary and very fortunate.

 

[pugrambo]

i only ever had brake shoes come apart and a broken front spring
oh i did have a starter motor die once
other than that i never had any troubles with 403's

 

[604 tragic]

Amazing 403 adventures

Anybody out there got anything to say about 403's. Most of the chit chat seems to be about later model stuff of late.

Thanks for starting the talk about the fantastic 403s - it has sent me into a time warp and all our old 403 adventures from the 60s&70s have come flooding back.
We did some incredibly stupid things in 403s are lived to tell the tales
My first few Pugs were 203s which were great, especially when we dropped 403 motors into them & warmed them up a little. But I found 203s to be a bit delicate (even though I went round Europe & top of Africa a couple of times in my trusty 1962 (SA) 203.
403s had a bit extra of everything, like power, room, and toughness. Only 200 more cc but it made the journey from Melbourne to Sydney &/or Surfers that much easier. And the seats laid back properly so you could rest nearly like in bed. The bodies were stronger than 203s and didnt crack as easily. And they were nearly impossible to kill! They were sort of like the froggy equivalent of the Kombi Van in that even if they were totally shagged they kept going.

In the US, I once went on a quest to find a 403 cabriolet (like Columbo's) , I was tracking down this guy in Southern California that, I had been told, owned a "CABRIOLET" . But the communication wires were crossed because when I finally caught up with him in Monterey - his cabrio he had was a DS citroen cabriolet by Chapron (now lives in QLD). Sort of bugga!!!

I bet I still have some long forgotten 403 bits in my garage somewhere - now where are those new transverse front springs I put away for a rainy day???

 

[morton403]

Thanks for starting the talk about the fantastic 403s - it has sent me into a time warp and all our old 403 adventures from the 60s&70s have come flooding back.
We did some incredibly stupid things in 403s are lived to tell the tales
My first few Pugs were 203s which were great, especially when we dropped 403 motors into them & warmed them up a little. But I found 203s to be a bit delicate (even though I went round Europe & top of Africa a couple of times in my trusty 1962 (SA) 203.
403s had a bit extra of everything, like power, room, and toughness. Only 200 more cc but it made the journey from Melbourne to Sydney &/or Surfers that much easier. And the seats laid back properly so you could rest nearly like in bed. The bodies were stronger than 203s and didnt crack as easily. And they were nearly impossible to kill! They were sort of like the froggy equivalent of the Kombi Van in that even if they were totally shagged they kept going.

In the US, I once went on a quest to find a 403 cabriolet (like Columbo's) , I was tracking down this guy in Southern California that, I had been told, owned a "CABRIOLET" . But the communication wires were crossed because when I finally caught up with him in Monterey - his cabrio he had was a DS citroen cabriolet by Chapron (now lives in QLD). Sort of bugga!!!

I bet I still have some long forgotten 403 bits in my garage somewhere - now where are those new transverse front springs I put away for a rainy day???

Thanks for joining in with some anecdotes about 403's. I heard an NRMA bloke on the TV this afternoon saying that people are a little cocooned and perhaps complacent when driving today because it doesn't require the same dexterity or effort. I've had the same debate with my wife. She thinks that grappling with a 403 would make driving more dangerous. I argued that it actually makes me concentrate more and I'm enjoying it more. I really feel that I'm actually in control of the car and have to drive a little defensively unlike most drivers who feel that if anything goes wrong they can just jump on their power brakes.

 

[davemcbean]

I've had the same debate with my wife. She thinks that grappling with a 403 would make driving more dangerous. I argued that it actually makes me concentrate more and I'm enjoying it more. I really feel that I'm actually in control of the car and have to drive a little defensively unlike most drivers who feel that if anything goes wrong they can just jump on their power brakes.

Having recently driven a 403 for the first time, and driving new cars for a living, I don't think the 403 was any more difficult to drive. I'm only 31, though. Maybe if I was 85, I would notice more of a difference.

From what I could feel, the accident avoidance capabilities of the 403 seemed fine, it was the lack of passive things like a collapsible steering column, good seatbelts, head restraints, etc, etc which reduce its safeness. In my opinion the very good steering feel of the 403 is an important safety feature which helps you avoid accidents in the first place.

Dave

 

[M. Tippett]

403 + 404 weights

I thought the 403 was around 1070-1080kg, while the 404 ranged from 1060kg for basic cars up to around 1090kg for cars with injection and a sunroof. If so, then the basic 404 (which is most common here) is slightly lighter than the 403, although for all intents and purposes both cars have pretty much the same mass.

These are the kerb masses I'm using (i.e. wet) whereas I know many of the early 1960s specs were dry weights which showed the 404 and 403 to be much closer to a round 1000kg.

My "La Production Peugeot 1966" book - from Peugeot itself - indicates that the dry weight of a 403 Confort with TN3 engine (1468 cc) is 1005 kg, curb weight is 1055 kg.

The same book indicates that the XC5-powered (1618 cc, carb.) 404 weighed in at 1020 kg dry and 1070 kg at the curb. Interestingly, no difference in weight is indicated for the KF2 injected version, which must be wrong....I'd think the KF2 cars carry an additional 10 kg or maybe even 15 (but that extra mass is precious cargo indeed, and worth every microgram)

Interestingly, the 403 is 45 mm longer than the 404, 60 mm higher and 50 mm wider (source: same book as above). Visually it looks like a far heavier car than it actually is, and certainly it looks heavier than the 404 does, at least to me. Must be the 403's pontoon body - the detailing on the 404 looks so much daintier (especially with the tailfins).

Imagine if the 403 had a Kugelfischer option. That'd have been a very nice quick-ish car, with an extra 20-25 HP.....

The 403 is cool, no doubt. Maybe a Constantin supercharged version would be the ticket, for the originality-freaks! Or how about the Intermeccanica Weber twin DCOE kit? I have a photo of one of those, somewhere.

Dave, the guy I thought I could get the double round lights from - for an early CDN/USA 505 - has been out of business for a year now, as it turns out. Remember I was going to drop by there last August, but couldn't? Just as well... so I'm afraid that I can't get any of those light mounts/bezels there. Don't know what happened to his cars either. Probably got crushed. I'll keep an eye open for you though.

Edit:
PS: Happy New Year to Aussifrogs guys and gals! (we're one of the last time zones to celebrate the arrival of 2004).

 

[Ray Bell]

Longer and higher? Hard to believe...

The torque tube difference must mean the engine's further forward in the 404... or there's less overhang at the rear.

I can believe the wider... the 404 is a narrow car.

As for Kugelfischer in a 403... that would have been interesting, it would have beaten Mercedes to the punch for sedan injection usage (but still lagged behind Borgward...)

 

[davemcbean]

The torque tube difference must mean the engine's further forward in the 404... or there's less overhang at the rear.

Yes that's true. The 404 crossmember sits under the mid point of its engine whereas it's closer to the front of the motor in the 403.

Dave