DS19 engine reconditioning

[DoubleChevron]

Roger, All I had was the bare head, manifold etc. The tappets and the shafts came from a head that was subsequently fitted to Shanes Blue 64 ID. The push rods were always separated from the head and may or may not be the correct ones! No guarantees!

I've never needed to rebuild a Citroen motor. ... so this is all new too me. When I used your head it was just dropped off at the local machine shop to pressure test/check/etc....

The motor in that blue car probably hasn't even done 10,000kms since it was rebuilt (by Mike Jolly ... the peugeot guy just before he shifted away). The cars sits on 70mph even up the steepest parts of the Pentlands coming back to ballarat. there's no liner lips and you can still see the heavy machining marks are on the bores from when it was rebuilt.

The weird bit is the ugly pink car goes the a lot better than this oen Infact the best of any long stroke car I've driven .... I have no idea why ... I've never touched the motor ... I'm assuming it's had the liners bored out and oversize holden pistons fitted (or similar)... which was apparently a modification done back in the 70's/80's. Roger and Gerry would know all about those sorts of modifications done back then.

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[Trading Estate]

Hillman Hunter pistons were also used DC

 

[Hotrodelectric]

I doubt it Bill, the ID followers are the same as the DS followers. The valve springs rockers etc. are also the same, year for year. The only irregularity is the position of the forward journal that precludes modifying the ID HP pump lobe. The followers I provided also would have been good enough for me. They were not eroded in any way. These components on long stroke TA and D motors were very reliable. I have never seen a failed cam or follower from one of these motors. The 5 bearing crank motors that came later are an entirely different proposition. Lobes wear and followers erode badly.

I thought it was the DS motor had a tad more power? A higher lift and longer duration would allow for better breathing, adding a bit to the top end whilst keeping the low end idle Roger desires. Eh, it's all academic at this point, since the choice has been made. I don't know enough about the early engines to piss into a thimble, so take what I say with a grain of salt. My original point was about the ID cam- the one Roger dug up- needing considerable machine work to make it fit. Wasn't the one you supplied for a DS?

 

[lhs2.1]

Back to the cylinder head.
The new valves were fitted to the head. My machine shop had fitted new guides, but when I came to assemble the valves I wasn’t happy with the valve stem clearances – they were too tight. As supplied by Der Franzose the inlet valve stems measured 8.91mm diameter and the exhausts were 8.89mm. With a guide bore right on 9.00mm this would give 0.003” clearance on the inlets and 0.004” on the exhausts – about right for cast iron guides. So I reamed out the guides with a new 9mm hand reamer and fitted it all up.
The exhaust manifold studs were fitted with JB-Weld to seal the coolant.
To be continued.

 

[gerrypro]

. Wasn't the one you supplied for a DS?

Yes Bill, That is the picture of it on the right!

 

[gerrypro]

Back to the cylinder head.
The new valves were fitted to the head. My machine shop had fitted new guides, but when I came to assemble the valves I wasn’t happy with the valve stem clearances – they were too tight. As supplied by Der Franzose the inlet valve stems measured 8.91mm diameter and the exhausts were 8.89mm. With a guide bore right on 9.00mm this would give 0.003” clearance on the inlets and 0.004” on the exhausts – about right for cast iron guides. So I reamed out the guides with a new 9mm hand reamer and fitted it all up.
The exhaust manifold studs were fitted with JB-Weld to seal the coolant.
To be continued.
View attachment 61402View attachment 61403View attachment 61404

Looking Good!

 

[GreenBlood]

Back to the cylinder head.
The new valves were fitted to the head. My machine shop had fitted new guides, but when I came to assemble the valves I wasn’t happy with the valve stem clearances – they were too tight. As supplied by Der Franzose the inlet valve stems measured 8.91mm diameter and the exhausts were 8.89mm. With a guide bore right on 9.00mm this would give 0.003” clearance on the inlets and 0.004” on the exhausts – about right for cast iron guides. So I reamed out the guides with a new 9mm hand reamer and fitted it all up.
The exhaust manifold studs were fitted with JB-Weld to seal the coolant.
To be continued.

Repro strikes again, Darren of Citroen Classics UK has noted this problem with the later post '67 models.
Valve stem seals | Classic Citroën DS

Cheers
Chris

 

[DoubleChevron]

Repro strikes again, Darren of Citroen Classics UK has noted this problem with the later post '67 models.
Valve stem seals | Classic Citroën DS

Cheers
Chris

Gee's the reamer to run them out probably cost more than all the guides When the engine was rebuilt on the blue ID19 he used a lot of NOS from Citro-motors/Bruno.... He was far from impressed when he unwrapped the "new" bearings and found them rusty from storage ....... and was refused a refund !

Did you replace the valve seats? I imagine they would be quite difficult to find these days (give the originals seem to last forever).

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[DoubleChevron]

I thought it was the DS motor had a tad more power? A higher lift and longer duration would allow for better breathing, adding a bit to the top end whilst keeping the low end idle Roger desires. Eh, it's all academic at this point, since the choice has been made. I don't know enough about the early engines to piss into a thimble, so take what I say with a grain of salt. My original point was about the ID cam- the one Roger dug up- needing considerable machine work to make it fit. Wasn't the one you supplied for a DS?

I'm not sure about he camshaft.... I sure Roger will post some piccies of the rest of the motor.... The DS19 should have an external inlet manifold, twin choke carby and domed pistons (so higher compression). The ID's have the single choke solex, internal inlet manifold and flat top pistons.

seeya,
Shane L.

 

[bluey504]

Roger before you install the head trial fit the spark plugs. You may need to index them so the plug gap isn't shrouded or pointing towards the cylinder wall. It is a OCD thing but it does help with an even power output and service life as a shrouded plug is way more prone to fouling.
Had a 504 XN1 that ate plugs in number one, only Bosch plugs mind, yep pointing in the worst possible way. Probably did it from day one as the head showed no signs of repair ie helicoil just ate plugs.
Then again seeing how you have installed the valves and the guide clearance you have it well in hand.....At what speed does the front windows start to flap?
Brendan.

 

[lhs2.1]

Repro strikes again, Darren of Citroen Classics UK has noted this problem with the later post '67 models.
Valve stem seals | Classic Citroën DS

Cheers
Chris

Chris, the problem that Darren has posted is a different issue, although it does highlight the potential problems with repro parts.
The issue I had was that, after fitting the guides into the head, the clearances between the valve stems and the guides was, in my opinion, too small so I elected to ream the guides out. This is not a big deal, and on a rebuild like this is not unusual.
roger

 

[lhs2.1]

Did you replace the valve seats? I imagine they would be quite difficult to find these days (give the originals seem to last forever).

seeya,
Shane L.

No, but I think that they are still available from the usual Euro suspects.
roger

 

[lhs2.1]

Roger before you install the head trial fit the spark plugs. You may need to index them so the plug gap isn't shrouded or pointing towards the cylinder wall. It is a OCD thing but it does help with an even power output and service life as a shrouded plug is way more prone to fouling.
Had a 504 XN1 that ate plugs in number one, only Bosch plugs mind, yep pointing in the worst possible way. Probably did it from day one as the head showed no signs of repair ie helicoil just ate plugs.
Then again seeing how you have installed the valves and the guide clearance you have it well in hand.....At what speed does the front windows start to flap?
Brendan.

Interesting thoughts on spark plug orientation - I'd never considered this before.
The windows start flapping around 80mph, depending on the setting of the flow through ventilation, the wear in the window guides, and the tiredness of the door seals.
roger

 

[lhs2.1]

Not much to report today. I picked up the flywheel and clutch pressure plate after surface grinding, and then put the clutch assembly together. The clutch finger heights have yet to be set – I’ll do this later.
When the flywheel surface is ground, the same amount needs to be removed from the clutch mounting face – the two arrowed surfaces.
A new sealed spigot bearing was installed in the flywheel.
To be continued

 

[Roger Wilkinson]

The windows start flapping around 80mph, depending on the setting of the flow through ventilation, the wear in the window guides, and the tiredness of the door seals.

The first front DS had the best flow-through ventilation of any D.

The earliest DS had a straight window guide. The windows must have been prone to flap, because in May 1957 they added a slight kink at the top of the guide, which pushed the closed glass harder against the rubber seal.

Roger

 

[lhs2.1]

Progress has slowed a little. The camshaft and lifters have been sent off to Clive Cams to be reground. So no further assembly can take place until I get them back. In the meantime I've trial fitted the new liners in the block to ascertain how much needs to be machined from their top surface to get the right 'crush' on the head gasket. The protusion is measured with a ground parallel and feeler gauges. All checked out OK other than #1 liner where I was getting some strange readings. I then carefully examined the new liner and found a burr on the mounting face. This was removed with a Swiss file, but it still 'rocked" in the seat and the heights were not right. However, when I rotated it 180deg it settled down and the heights were consistent. Unfortunately the liners are indexed and can only be fitted one way, so I'm going to have to mill flats on this liner so that it will fit where I want it.
roger

 

[lhs2.1]

No further progress as I've been waiting for the camshaft and lifters to come back from Clive Cams. In the meantime I've had laser cataract surgery on both eyes, so the enforced delay wasn't totally wasted!
The cam and lifters arrived today so final assembly can begin. In the attached image the remachined cam lobes have a anti-scuff coating so they appear quite dull.
to be continued
roger

 

[mberry]

Loving this thread. Hopefully it will be archived off in the right place and backed up. Thinking I might just copy and paste the whole thing into my own file. Thank you Roger. Would no doubt make a great article in print for the club, especially for those that don't do the interweb.

 

[lhs2.1]

I'm sorry that this thread seems to have prematurely ceased. I was faced with the need to sort out the power steering on the daily Land Rover Disco. and, after disposing of the Peugeot S16, I needed to recommission the Porsche 911 which took a bit of time. Having done that I booked us into the Easter Citroen bash in SA, which meant that the Citroen SM required some much needed attention. So the DS19 engine build has taken a back seat, hopefully back to it soon. Meanwhile, this is what a dismembered SM looks like.
roger

 

[gerrypro]

I have been wondering when this thread was going to resurface.
It has been sorely missed!