D Cylinder Head Casting Number

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Hi Gents / Ladies
Has somebody got a DS cylinder head laying around that can confirm casting number for a DS 23IE and or a DS 21IE.
I have the attached cylinder head (DX 112 IE) but have no idea what engine it came from ( nor did the seller).
Does any body know what motor it belongs to: 23IE or 21IE? Are they interchangeable?
I've tried to measure cylinder bore diameter but really, it is indefinable.
John
20231111_184709.jpg
 
That's the part number. From the 1970 part book it may be a 21 IE head. You could also wade through the parts books and Technical Data books to check measurements and features.

1699871731486.png
 
David S said:
That's the part number. From the 1970 part book it may be a 21 IE head. You could also wade through the parts books and Technical Data books to check measurements and features.

View attachment 230746
Click to expand...
Thanks David, I've tried that but I don't know why, I cannot open my digital documents in readable format.
I was hoping that Budge may check his stock of heads but then he may have disposed of them.
PS: it's got to the stage that I hate computers and I'm becoming a dinosaur.
20231112_112957.jpg
 
You need to use an adobe acrobat reader or compatible software. This is an adobe pdf file. This software is available free from adobe but they have just changed the user interface to make you think it does a whole lot more than the free reader will do in the hope you will upgrade at a cost to an enhanced version. So just use the simple functions in the reader application.

Cheers, Ken
 
Ken W said:
You need to use an adobe acrobat reader or compatible software. This is an adobe pdf file. This software is available free from adobe but they have just changed the user interface to make you think it does a whole lot more than the free reader will do in the hope you will upgrade at a cost to an enhanced version. So just use the simple functions in the reader application.

Cheers, Ken
Click to expand...
Sorry Ken and thanks, but my computer, a Lenovo ThinkPad may be getting a bit old in the tooth as the saying goes.
A friend did some upgrades some time back and never been the same since.
As I've been operating via the "smart phone" I have not bothered with the computer.
There is no option but to use Windows, MS-DOS or the other encoding on the drop down window. It was perfect before the upgrade / disturbance.
 
might be a case of plonking pdf on memory stick and off to officeworks for some serious two sided printing and hole punch folder.
 
You can read a PDF on any device if you can install a PDF reader on it. Even try to view it inside a web browser usually works.
 
David. Steven, this ThinkPad is/ must be stuffed or it may be me. Whilst it was always mine, it was used to earn a living before retirement and subsequently under the control of the employer's IT Administrator. It was remiss of me not to have it "cleaned" before leaving - I did not know that at the time. It now, every now and then tells me to contact the Administrator.

This 23 / 21 IE head, I have, I would like to refurbish as, as is it is of no use to anybody - condition totally unknown but there are some obvious defects. Seeing it laying there doing nothing is annoying when I've heard of others needing a head to get their D going.
Maybe Paul will come good and check his stock.
John
 
Hi. Looks like I get a few mentions here? If so, I do have a few heads - but only variants of the heads used on early carburettor Ds21s. I don't have a stock as such. What I do recall is that the numbers cast on heads and blocks dob't translate directly to the parts books.

I think it's safe to say that it's an ie head from what is cast on it but, as has already been said, identification of whether it's a 21 or 23 head (or even if there are any differences in the two) may come down to an examination of the parts books.

I'm not really an ie guy, but I'll look at the parts books and see if any clues jump out at me.
 
The IE heads came with 4 x setscrews + 4 x studs on the inlet side to retain the inlet tubes. Carby heads have all studs to hold the inlet manifold. It is of course easy enough to change between setscrews and studs. (Note: the setscrews need to be sealed when fitting the EFI inlet tubes.) There's also an extra hole in the middle of the inlet side for the EFI thermo-time switch. Whether 21 and 23 heads differ I'm not sure. Head gaskets for 23 and 21 have the same profile other than the bore size.

You might also consider this thread as an old IE head might have Sodium-filled exhaust valves ...

Bustard - Inlet valve

I thought I was doing quite well, I was into parts of the engine I had never seen before or planned to see. Cleaned up the head and was just bedding in the valves and (see below). Admittedly it was all going too well, I hadn’t striped or broken a nut, bolt or anything else to date, my luck just...
www.aussiefrogs.com
 
Last edited:
I had a look at the parts books. My reading of them is that they show only one part number for an ie head - implying there are not different heads for a 21 and 23. The part number changes for the 648 catalogue, but it looks as though that was a simple re-numbering and not due to any change in specification. Again, only one part is shown for an ie head, regardless of the part number change.

All the above is possibly open to other interpretations, so proceed with caution.
 
All IE heads have sodium exhaust valves from factory. They don’t seem as prone to failure as the valves fitted to SMs though.

What’s interesting is that 648 doesn’t have different part numbers for 21 and 23 heads at all. Hunting around a bit more, the table of models at the front doesn’t list the DS21. The DX model code refers only to the DS23. A DS20 gets the DY code and dsuper gets DT.

Does anyone know if there’s any difference between a DS21 and DS23 carby head? I would have thought the combustion chamber diameter was slightly larger on a 23 to match the piston diameter.
 
Budge said:
Hi. Looks like I get a few mentions here? If so, I do have a few heads - but only variants of the heads used on early carburettor Ds21s. I don't have a stock as such. What I do recall is that the numbers cast on heads and blocks dob't translate directly to the parts books.

I think it's safe to say that it's an ie head from what is cast on it but, as has already been said, identification of whether it's a 21 or 23 head (or even if there are any differences in the two) may come down to an examination of the parts books.

I'm not really an ie guy, but I'll look at the parts books and see if any clues jump out at me.
Click to expand...
Sorry Paul but I remembered your saga on refurbishing your "head" and the fact that you had a few.
I believe that irrespective of an IE or carburetor head for a 21 or a 23 capacity block, they are the one. I'm not saying that a normally aspirated motor had the same head as an IE head (obviously not, because of different inlet manifold requirements) but such a head may be installed onto a 21 or 23 block.
John
 
David S said:
The IE heads came with 4 x setscrews + 4 x studs on the inlet side to retain the inlet tubes. Carby heads have all studs to hold the inlet manifold. It is of course easy enough to change between setscrews and studs. (Note: the setscrews need to be sealed when fitting the EFI inlet tubes.) There's also an extra hole in the middle of the inlet side for the EFI thermo-time switch. Whether 21 and 23 heads differ I'm not sure. Head gaskets for 23 and 21 have the same profile other than the bore size.

You might also consider this thread as an old IE head might have Sodium-filled exhaust valves ...

Bustard - Inlet valve

I thought I was doing quite well, I was into parts of the engine I had never seen before or planned to see. Cleaned up the head and was just bedding in the valves and (see below). Admittedly it was all going too well, I hadn’t striped or broken a nut, bolt or anything else to date, my luck just...
www.aussiefrogs.com
Click to expand...
Speaking of socket head set screws holding the inlet manifolds in place, this head has 2 that have sheared off, no doubt because of oxidation between screw and Al head.
As for the exhaust valves, surely, irrespective of fuel injected or carby aspirated, both would have utilised the current best practise at time and adopted Sodium-filled exhaust valves.
My 1964 Fiat 1500 had sodium filled exhaust valves way back then.
With the discussions to date David, I reckon the heads are interchangeable.
 
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